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I originally posted this on another forum but I?m hoping I get a few more replies here on Dakka.

So I played my first game of 40k in six months today and inevitably some rules queries came up, particularly in regards to Dark Eldar Mandrakes.

The first sticking point was their ?hidden deployment? special rule and infiltrators. My contention was that they do not affect infiltrators in any way, so infiltrators can set up right next to them if they wish. My opponent argued that if the Mandrakes could see the infiltrators, then they would have to start 18? away.

The second question I have is about their ?shadow-skinned? special role. Here are the relevant rules:

The special chameleon-like qualities of the Mandrakes allow them to blend into the background, even when standing in open terrain. Mandrakes always count as being in cover, giving them a 5+ saving throw against most attacks. This counts in an assault as well, so unless the attackers are armed with frag grenades, the Mandrakes will always strike first. If attacked by something that ignores cover their normal armour save of 5+ applies.

My belief is that the Mandrakes never get the benefits of shadow-skinned when charging due to this rule (BGB pg 39) Note that cover advantage applies only to models in cover that are being charged. Some units count as being in cover all the time because of psychic abilities or weird force fields, but these are of no benefit if the unit itself charges.

I also think they only get the shadow-skinned bonus during the first round - when cover would normally be in effect. My opponent argues that because the rule says always count as being in cover and always strike first means they strike first regardless of whether they charge or are charged, are in cover or not, it is the first or second round of combat and even if the target unit is in cover.

I?d appreciate any feedback.

Cheers

Wow, your post is all one block in the forum and it appears in paragraphs well formatted in the reply editor.  Hmmm... wierd...

Someone has a unit of mandrakes painted?  I'd be inclined to give them every extra advatage I could think of!  That said...

The mandrake rules were written in a different context, under V3 so interpreting them now is going to be difficult.

My opponent argued that if the Mandrakes could see the infiltrators, then they would have to start 18? away.

Yes, that's also how the infiltrators rules are written, by the letter it is correct. 

Unfortunately because 2 of the 3 dummy mandrakes are innevitably not actually there, it would seem to follow that they could not affect a deploying unit's position as they were not a unit themselves, but then doesn't it also follow that infiltrating against shadow skinned assasins would be pretty hard to do? This is all speculative fluff anyway and does not follow the RAW.  Therefore it is irrelevant.

My belief is that the Mandrakes never get the benefits of shadow-skinned when charging due to this rule (BGB pg 39)

Yes, that lines up properly with the new rules, they're basically carrying bushes. Just be careful when quoting rules to support your favor in one case (shadowskinned charging cover) and inconsistently using fluff arguments to support your case in another (infiltrator settup distances), when the rules are clear.

My opponent argues that because the rule says always count as being in cover and always strike first means they strike first regardless of whether they charge or are charged, are in cover or not, it is the first or second round of combat and even if the target unit is in cover.

Your oppoent is really stretching the rules here, he is incorrect.  They do always count as being in cover, and after the first of round of combat they are still considered being in cover, it just doesn't have any effect on the melee strike order anymore, but they are still counted as in cover.  Furthermore, always strikes first, applies to the cover issue, which is addressed in the rules as only first round, not every round.  Its all in the RAW.

(Does he really hurt you with a handful of regular S3 attacks much anyway? Just curious) 

Good luck with your games.

Well, I think we can all safely say that the Mandrake codex entry could have been written better.


Anyway, the ability for the Mandrake to "always strike first" is clearly because they count as always being in cover (the whole "This counts in an assault as well, so. . ." part), not a magical ability on its own like a Banshee Mask.

For someone to claim that the Mandrakes get the bonus no matter what they would need to prove that a unit always being in cover gets that bonus, which they obviously don't.

So, in short, I agree with you on this matter.


As for deployment purposes, the Mandrake models themselves clearly have to be set up following the "deployment rules for the mission" (which means they cannot set up within 'X' inches of enemy models if the mission specifies such). However, the rules also mention that the "Mandrakes do not affect the enemy" until they are revealed.

Causing units to set up 18" away would clearly be "affecting" them in some way and is therefore incorrect.

Sorry about the formatting - I copied and pasted it from another document, pre-formatted, but Dakka showed it as a single block of text after I posted it. :S I editted it straight away and now it looks OK to me, but this reply box I'm typing into right now is squashed over to the left while the smilies are way over to the right Maybe it's because I'm using Firefox?

Anyway, back on topic.

On the infiltrators issue - my reasoning comes from the Mandrakes special rules (not fluff!):

Until the squads [Mandrakes] location is revealed, your opponent may not shoot, assault or otherwise attack the Mandrakes in any way, but by the same token, the Mandrakes do not affect the enemy, and can't be used for crossfire purposes, to block lines of sight, etc.

I think pushing back infiltrators is affecting the enemy and  isn't allowed.

As ever with fluff arguments, it is easy to argue both ways and in any case they're not relevant on YMTC

On their in-game performance - even without pushing the rules I think Mandrakes are undervalued by many players. With 3 movement phases and an assault phase they can move 24" without a single shot being fired at them and can be used to tie up or kill shooty units. They're also pretty handy for getting to objectives in good shape. I dunno, maybe it's just because I have been playing with Guard and Tau lately where the Mandrakes could actually win!

lone pilgrim> On the infiltrators issue - my reasoning comes from the Mandrakes special rules (not fluff!):

"...but by the same token, the Mandrakes do not affect the enemy, and can't be used for crossfire purposes, to block lines of sight, etc. "

I think pushing back infiltrators is affecting the enemy and  isn't allowed.

I see, I appologize and concur, I withdraw my previous counterpoint.

lone pilgrim> As ever with fluff arguments, it is easy to argue both ways and in any case they're not relevant on YMTC

Indeed.

lone pilgrim> On their in-game performance - even without pushing the rules I think Mandrakes are undervalued by many players. .... I dunno, maybe it's just because I have been playing with Guard and Tau lately where the Mandrakes could actually win!

Probably, they are painfully innefective against marines, but are certainly an interesting unit. It must be nice to have a liberal opponent who will explore the depth of the game by including rare units. You know, I bet they are really great in escalation! I hadn't thought of that, can they get haywire grenades?

Thanks for your replies, Yak and Augustus. I think that clarifies the situation nicely.

@ Augustus -  Mandrakes can't get grenades at all, (un)fortunately. My opponent  is  a good player  and  often uses  units  others scorn. He  plays Flesh  hounds in his    World  Eaters  army for example, their speed allowing them to tie up enemy units while the Berzerkers follow up in the second wave. He is also very fair and generally takes the weakest of two rule options. That's why I was a bit puzzled about his take on the Mandrakes - it made me doubt myself!