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So there are 4 major changes I feel need to be changed to improve 8th.
1. Modifiers apply BEFORE rerolls.
2. Vehicles may move though INFANTRY and BIKER models when falling back.
3. Weapons may fire overwatch regardless of range.
4. Fall back requires a roll off. +1 Modifier to whoever has the highest M, +1 Modifier if you're a Wytch. +1 Modifier if you have some sort of hit and run rule.

Extra that I am not 100% sure about since I hate flyers anyway:
"Supersonic" rule causes any weapons that autohit with a range of 12" or less to automiss instead.

1. Agree, not sure why it's the other way around atm.
2. I partially agree, perhaps have it "a Vehicle may fall back out of combat through models with the INFANTRY or BIKER keyword but if they do so, both the vehicle unit and the unit it moves through must carry out a round of combat". This is to represent the vehicle attempting to run down the unit and the unit attacking it as it drives through them.
3. Agree.
4. Whilst I would love for this to be true, I think that might make cc units even more powerful than they already are.

I know the thematic reason behind this but what about Heldrakes? Can't they flame flyers? How about this addition to the Supersonic rule: "in addition, weapons that automatically hit half the number of shots rounding up when targeting a unit with this rule unless the unit firing has the FLY keyword".

How about this idea from the other thread: Reverse Overwatch

When a unit falls back, the enemy unit gets to make their melee attacks but only hitting on 6's. If you want to balance it keep modifiers so power fists don't get to do it. Or make it only basic attacks. Or even just one attack each basic.

Also, point 5: Allow units to use their grenades in close combat again. Hitting on 6's

Hmm, I like that idea. Maybe have a new Sweeping Advance rule for 8th: "if a unit falls back from combat, the unit it was in combat with immediately attacks the unit falling back as if it were the fight phase and uses all the normal rules escept that a 6 is required to hit, irrespective of the units weapon skill or any modifiers."

I agree with point 5 as well.

The Reverse Overwatch thing is a great idea


Edit: Frakkin' Autocorrect

FireSkullz2 wrote:
The Reverse Overeat thing is a great idea

Isn't that just anorexia?

Overwhack!

I like the idea a lot.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Overwhack!

I like the idea a lot.

Orks would probably call it go da back home!

I think the reason modifiers happen after rerolls is so that people with units who have a "reroll 1s" rule and who are subject to a -1 to hit modifier (or a plus 1 I suppose) only reroll those dice which physically roll natural 1s. I'm not a particularly experienced 40K player, but I imagine that modifiers first would lead to some confusion/arguments/shenanegans.

 feltmonkey wrote:
I think the reason modifiers happen after rerolls is so that people with units who have a "reroll 1s" rule and who are subject to a -1 to hit modifier (or a plus 1 I suppose) only reroll those dice which physically roll natural 1s. I'm not a particularly experienced 40K player, but I imagine that modifiers first would lead to some confusion/arguments/shenanegans.

And the current situation is any better? We have situations where Plasma Moving At Night Shooting at a Flyer somehow has a higher chance to explode, an ability that gives a reroll and +1 to invul saves meaning you have to reroll your 6++ save if you roll a 5 and situations where you can roll <insert arbitrarily large number> of 3's at a flyer and be denied your reroll to hit ability.

All you need to do is define what a "natural" roll is and make re-roll 1's apply to natural only.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
4. Fall back requires a roll off. +1 Modifier to whoever has the highest M, +1 Modifier if you're a Wytch. +1 Modifier if you have some sort of hit and run rule.

Fly should grant a +1
Always Strike First should grant a +1
Biker / Cavalry / Chariot should grant a +1
Jump Pack / Jet Pack should grant a +1

 BaconCatBug wrote:


an ability that gives a reroll and +1 to invul saves meaning you have to reroll your 6++ save if you roll a 5

What? No you don't. If you have a 6+ save, have a +1 modifier and roll a 5, then why on earth would you reroll it? The rule says you "may" reroll.

 feltmonkey wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:


an ability that gives a reroll and +1 to invul saves meaning you have to reroll your 6++ save if you roll a 5

What? No you don't. If you have a 6+ save, have a +1 modifier and roll a 5, then why on earth would you reroll it? The rule says you "may" reroll.

Because a 5 is a fail, you have to make re-rolls before modifiers. "Angelic Visage: Re-roll failed Shield of Faith invulnerable saves for this unit." is not optional.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talamare wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
4. Fall back requires a roll off. +1 Modifier to whoever has the highest M, +1 Modifier if you're a Wytch. +1 Modifier if you have some sort of hit and run rule.

Fly should grant a +1
Always Strike First should grant a +1
Biker / Cavalry / Chariot should grant a +1
Jump Pack / Jet Pack should grant a +1

This seems a bit too much. Fly already get to shoot normally when falling back. Biker's and such would be covered by +1 for having a greater M. Always striking first doesn't mean you're good at running away either.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talamare wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
4. Fall back requires a roll off. +1 Modifier to whoever has the highest M, +1 Modifier if you're a Wytch. +1 Modifier if you have some sort of hit and run rule.

Fly should grant a +1
Always Strike First should grant a +1
Biker / Cavalry / Chariot should grant a +1
Jump Pack / Jet Pack should grant a +1

This seems a bit too much. Fly already get to shoot normally when falling back. Biker's and such would be covered by +1 for having a greater M. Always striking first doesn't mean you're good at running away either.

Hmm, yea the specific unit types was a bit much

but Fly should grant a +1. I would love to see people try to hit with their sword when someone is flying away from them.

Always Strike Fight fighters tend to be known for their agility and speed. Note, I was under the impression that they would get +1 for both Defensive and Offensive.

As in, ASF would give you a +1 when people attempt to run from you as well.

nm

 BaconCatBug wrote:
So there are 4 major changes I feel need to be changed to improve 8th.
1. Modifiers apply BEFORE rerolls.
2. Vehicles may move though INFANTRY and BIKER models when falling back.
3. Weapons may fire overwatch regardless of range.
4. Fall back requires a roll off. +1 Modifier to whoever has the highest M, +1 Modifier if you're a Wytch. +1 Modifier if you have some sort of hit and run rule.

Extra that I am not 100% sure about since I hate flyers anyway:
"Supersonic" rule causes any weapons that autohit with a range of 12" or less to automiss instead.

1. It is this way so negative modifiers don't give a net positive effect to a roll. If that SM heavy plasma gun shooting a flyer at night on the move (-3) standing next to Bubba G (reroll all misses) applied modifiers first, he'd be able to reroll MORE dice than he could applying modifiers after rerolls, a net benefit (despite the risk of more ones--a risk is always less important than a known, and that one there means you die. By rerolling you are potentially living). That being said, I think plasma guns should only explode on an unmodified 1. It makes way more sense in the rerolls before modifiers context.

2. Vehicles are powerful enough.
3. This one bugs me too--I see what they mean by the timing of the shot, but come on.
4. I think the fall back rule makes the game better, but I can see how it could make it worse for some. NO real opinion on this one.

Space Marines next to Bobby G, firing 36 shots total.
Hitting on:
3s-32 hits
4s-27 hits
5s-20 hits
6s-11 hits

You never become MORE accurate by taking a penalty to hit.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Space Marines next to Bobby G, firing 36 shots total.
Hitting on:
3s-32 hits
4s-27 hits
5s-20 hits
6s-11 hits

You never become MORE accurate by taking a penalty to hit.

But with a -1 to hit before rerolls you don't get to reroll the 3s same with rerolling 1s if you move heavy weapons you can reroll 1 and 2 that way

So reword the "Reroll ones" abilities to let you reroll NATURAL ones. We're already houseruling, might as well go whole hog.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So reword the "Reroll ones" abilities to let you reroll NATURAL ones. We're already houseruling, might as well go whole hog.

I don't think that's a house rule. That's the actual rule for "rerolls ones" when the "rerolls before modifiers" rule is applied.

Re-rolling after modifiers changes the effectiveness of re-rolls and would need massive points re-work.

Example a unit has re-roll failed saves. Normally saves on a 4+ so the re-roll grants them 50% re-rolls. Get hits by a -2 AP weapon. Would still get 50% re-rolls but IF you re-roll after modifiers is now re-rolling 80+% of their armor saves.

Wagguy80 wrote:
Re-rolling after modifiers changes the effectiveness of re-rolls and would need massive points re-work.

Example a unit has re-roll failed saves. Normally saves on a 4+ so the re-roll grants them 50% re-rolls. Get hits by a -2 AP weapon. Would still get 50% re-rolls but IF you re-roll after modifiers is now re-rolling 80+% of their armor saves.

Except, as math will show, a penalty never makes it BETTER.

4+ rerolling has a 25% failure rate.
6+ rerolling EVERYTHING has a 69% failure rate.
6+ rerolling 1s, 2s, and 3s has a 75% failure rate.

The only time it makes it better is when you're only allowed to reroll 1s

Let's take a 3+ with a -1 applied after
Standard = 18/36
Reroll 1s = 21/36

Reroll 1s with a -1 applied before and after
2/6 * 3/6 = 6/36 + 18/36 = 24/36

Compare a 3+ rerolling 1s:

24/36 hits initially, 4 more with rerolls for 28.

To that with a -1 penalty (allowing you to reroll 2s as well):

18/36 hits initially, 6 more with rerolls for 24.

Penalties still make you worse.

 Talamare wrote:
The only time it makes it better is when you're only allowed to reroll 1s

Let's take a 3+ with a -1 applied after
Standard = 18/36
Reroll 1s = 21/36

Reroll 1s with a -1 applied before and after
2/6 * 3/6 = 6/36 + 18/36 = 24/36

Which can be easily fixed by making it re-roll only natural ones.

Why make a rule that requires you to make more rules to fix the problems from the first rule you made. Wouldn't it be easier to make it so plasma (and other such rules) only trigger on natural rolls of 1 and ignore modifiers.

 Venerable Ironclad wrote:
Why make a rule that requires you to make more rules to fix the problems from the first rule you made. Wouldn't it be easier to make it so plasma (and other such rules) only trigger on natural rolls of 1 and ignore modifiers.

Because that's not the problem, the problem is that with modifiers before re-rolls, an ability that lets you re-roll 1's actually becomes better if you have -1 to hit, so to prevent that it would need to be reroll natural ones only.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Venerable Ironclad wrote:
Why make a rule that requires you to make more rules to fix the problems from the first rule you made. Wouldn't it be easier to make it so plasma (and other such rules) only trigger on natural rolls of 1 and ignore modifiers.

Because that's not the problem, the problem is that with modifiers before re-rolls, an ability that lets you re-roll 1's actually becomes better if you have -1 to hit, so to prevent that it would need to be reroll natural ones only.

It's almost like you shouldn't be inventing a rule which only causes more problems...

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Venerable Ironclad wrote:
Why make a rule that requires you to make more rules to fix the problems from the first rule you made. Wouldn't it be easier to make it so plasma (and other such rules) only trigger on natural rolls of 1 and ignore modifiers.

Because that's not the problem, the problem is that with modifiers before re-rolls, an ability that lets you re-roll 1's actually becomes better if you have -1 to hit, so to prevent that it would need to be reroll natural ones only.

It's almost like you shouldn't be inventing a rule which only causes more problems...

Sorry, but more problems? It just replaces one problem for another, and one that can be much more easily be fixed than the previous problem.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Venerable Ironclad wrote:
Why make a rule that requires you to make more rules to fix the problems from the first rule you made. Wouldn't it be easier to make it so plasma (and other such rules) only trigger on natural rolls of 1 and ignore modifiers.

Because that's not the problem, the problem is that with modifiers before re-rolls, an ability that lets you re-roll 1's actually becomes better if you have -1 to hit, so to prevent that it would need to be reroll natural ones only.

It's almost like you shouldn't be inventing a rule which only causes more problems...

This is precisely what I was getting at. If you have issue with the way plasma interacts with modifiers, changing the order of operations is only going to cause more issues. That's why I proposed making exceptions to plasma INSTEAD OF changing the order of operations that requires additional exceptions to be implemented across the board.