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I've played a fair few games of 8th as Tau so far. Just had two frustrating losses in a row, both of which basically boiled down to "the side with an overpowered, unkillable forge world model wins".

My thoughts so far on Tau is:
Most of our good heavy-hitting units are bad or overcosted. The riptide, previously a star, costs well over 320 pts when kitted out with a burst cannon, SMS and a couple support systems, for what effectively is less effective shooting than a regular broadside. Accessing the overcharge makes it a little better, but given the fact that lascannons/whatever D3/D6 wound multipliers your enemy has tends to point at them immediately, that is rarely an option.

Crisis suits are decent, but unreliable and overcosted. With markerlights they're okay, but their manta strike often means they're well outside of markerlight support range. Too mediocre shooting, too unreliable, too easy to kill.

Broadsides are good but, again, overcosted.

Fusion commanders are the saving grace of this edition. Deepstriking to destroy a tank in one volley is both satisfying and crucially useful.

Stormsurges are good. It's kind of disappointing that the pulse driver cannon only gets D3 shots, making it unreliable and renegated to targeting down heavy multi-wound units, but overall it puts out enough shots to justify its points. The problem: EVERYTHING heavy will fire at it over and over and over, and since it gets a -1 to hit after losing 10 wounds, it rarely ever gets to actually be all that great.

Longstrike is pretty good. The only issue is that he takes up a HQ choice, and I prefer to run 2 commanders and a fireblade, which eats up all 3 HQ slots for my battallion detachment. Are there any other useful detachments I could bring in?

Markerlights. Markerlights are a massive contributor to all of the above problems. While it's nice that a single target confers the bonuses to all firing targets, the actual benefits are, if not useless, then pretty bad. Rerolling ones is decent but usually negligible, and markers 2-3 are all but useless, marker 4 is nice enough but not really that great, and 5 markers just to gain +1 means you'll be lucky to get +1 to hit more than once or twice in the game unless you spam pathfinders like there is no tomorrow, because boy howdy will your enemies home in on your pathfinders with any heavy bolter-level/basic gun level of shooting.
All in all they're significantly worse than before, unreliable, and frustrating to use.

Fire warriors are good, especially with a fireblade.

Stealth suits have decent application now, what with being capable teleportation homers.

So all in all: what's actually good in an army? I'm not even sure. Should I just get one more stormsurge, or what?

I'll agree in regards to Forgeworld. Some of these units are incredibly strong.

For Tau - and, I hate doing this, because it's such a nasty unit and invalidates my army completely - you should use the Y'varhna Riptide.

1. 18" fly move.
2. 2+/4++ statline, with a 3++ against melee.
3. 3d6 strenght 6, ap-2, 2 damage flamer.
4. strength 10 anti-tank weaponry
5. Has numerous upgrade options including shield drones.
6. 14 wounds, 7 toughness

All of this for about 400 points, and it's only a FA.

It's immune to assault. It blows up tanks. The optimal weaponry against it - assault cannons - are getting their pants nerfed off in the new SM codex.

What's happening to assault cannons now?

 Marmatag wrote:
I'll agree in regards to Forgeworld. Some of these units are incredibly strong.

For Tau - and, I hate doing this, because it's such a nasty unit and invalidates my army completely - you should use the Y'varhna Riptide.

1. 18" fly move.
2. 2+/4++ statline, with a 3++ against melee.
3. 3d6 strenght 6, ap-2, 2 damage flamer.
4. strength 10 anti-tank weaponry
5. Has numerous upgrade options including shield drones.
6. 14 wounds, 7 toughness

All of this for about 400 points, and it's only a FA.

It's immune to assault. It blows up tanks. The optimal weaponry against it - assault cannons - are getting their pants nerfed off in the new SM codex.

Yeah I kinda see no other options, despite the absurd pricing for one. I honestly think it's kind of disgraceful that forgeworld models can just dictate victory like this, but I don't see much of any choice if I want to be competitive.

How does classic gunline tau fair in 8th? Core of Fire warriors, Hammerheads and a few commanders with some marker support?

 digital-animal wrote:
How does classic gunline tau fair in 8th? Core of Fire warriors, Hammerheads and a few commanders with some marker support?

I got eradicated by Gulliman. I did manage to take down the feared flyer list but it was more due to my Ta'unar basically rolling like a god and saving the entire alpha strike against it and only losing two drones in the first turn. Then I got my first strike in and took down half his flyers. I would have probably lost that game if my Ta'unar got shot up on the first turn. I brought it not even expecting to win but managed to pull one off.

Grav spam is insane and brought it down with Gulliman. I managed to kill almost half of his army. Granted I got the worst deploy possible and the worst terrain possible so I couldn't even attempt to play to objectives. Gulliman should have been nerded, but he might have been indirectly nerfed if what I hear about auto cannons is good.

Other than that Tau are in a bad spot right now. Easily one of the worst factions in the game. We need our codex asap but I don't want GW to rush it especially if it's going to be dropping with new models (next year no doubt). Tau are the laughing stock of the meta right now. I got looks of utter shock that I still played them (very competitive meta). I'm the only Tau player I know of in my town to win in 8th so far.

Edit
The only viable list is commander spam supported with drones and pathfinders with ion rifles. Even then this pales in comparison to some of the true cheese lists out there. It's enough to be considered "barely viable" in a competitive sense much like Flyrant spam of old.

 digital-animal wrote:
How does classic gunline tau fair in 8th? Core of Fire warriors, Hammerheads and a few commanders with some marker support?

Fire warriors are a decent choice now. Cheaper than ever, and a fireblade makes for a whopping 3 shots per head when overwatching or rapid firing.

Hammerheads are decent, although still suffer from the 1-in-all problem of having a single shot that can easily whiff, especially with heavy movement. The best way to field hammerheads is with longstrike, who not only hits on a 2+, but can boost other hammerheads within 6' to do the same. Points wise, Hammerheads are now more better than broadsides, for about the same amount of shooting but with better BS and better staying power.

Commander marker support is... it's workable, but drone controllers do not let them hit on that awesome 2+ anymore, rather they just add 1. If you want your commander to stay back and boost a line of marker drones, maybe with a couple of missile pods, sure, but the commander does best when armed with fusion blasters and deepstriking these days.

In 7th it was all about the battlesuits and in 8th it's much less so, if only because of how badly overcosted the suits are in general.

TLDR yes infantry gunline seems as viable as anything, although I'd still advise bringing at least one stormsurge.

Stealth Suits are fantastic this edition. IMO they're the best non-FW battlesuit we have after Commanders.

For just over 200 points, you get a 6 man team with a Shas'Vre and 2 FBs. They're the only suit to stay the same price as last edition, and still got a statline buff! T4 2W is awesome for them. They're just a flat -1 to hit at all times (including in CC) and can deploy anywhere on the board outside of the opponent's deployment zone and more than 12" away from enemy units (bear in mind this just normal deployment, so they can still move, advance, shoot, and charge as normal 1st turn). They have FLY and an 8" move so they'll never be locked down in combat and can go over any terrain they want if they have the movement to do so. They're the only battlesuit to retain the INFANTRY keyword, meaning they just need to be in terrain to get the cover bonus (and since they can deploy almost anywhere they want they will be in cover at the start of the game). The Shas'Vre gives them Ld 8, which combined with Bonding Knife Ritual means that they have to lose 4 models before they even have a chance of failing morale, so they're not going anywhere like that. 6 models with T4, 2W, a 2+ save and an always on -1 to hit is insanely durable and will eat far more than their points cost worth of shooting. And that's just their defensive capabilities. 4 BCs gives you 16 S5 shots at 18" range and 2 FB gives you 2 extra range melta shots to punch above their weight class. Might not be the best in our index and other units can put out similar firepower, but it's certainly nothing to underestimate. And lets not forget that in 8th every Stealth Suit can take Support Systems now. Take ATSs and make all those BCs S5 AP -1. Take Shield Gens and make them damn near impossible to kill. Take CDSs and make their overwatch incredibly potent. My personal go to on Stealth Suits currently is Multi-trackers for all of them. For 2 points a pop, a model with an MT rerolls 1s to hit if they shoot all their weapons at the same target. Stealth Suits only have 1 weapon, so they always get the benefit. You're essentially paying 12 points so the entire unit is rerolling 1s to hit all game. Makes them much more reliable and very independent as they don't need as much markerlight support, allowing you to allocate it to different targets and spread the rerolling love.

These guys have been my MVPs pretty much every game I've played (only had 1 game in 8th where my Stealth Suit team was wiped out). I highly recommend them to any and all Tau players, these guys are certainly the winners in the switchover to 8th (Commanders were already almost always taken in previous editions so their popularity hasn't changed, just the role they fill), and outside of some massive nerfs to them when our codex drops, they're gonna be a mainstay for this edition for us.

I'm generally happy with a lot of the changes to Tau - the things that got nerfed (Riptide, Crisis) were units that needed it. Remember - most units got a points increase, so be careful with labeling things as "overcosted."

Fly on so many suits lets them get away from melee without penalty, which might be a bit too strong. Commanders are incredibly powerful, and I predict spam of them will be a thing. Classic gunlines got somewhat of a breath of fresh air and markerlights fit my mental image of how they work now. Rerolling 1's is no small benefit and shouldn't be overlooked - hello, overcharge.

My stealth teams got wiped pretty easily in 8th by Gulliman list. Not quite one turn but he did roll badly and only one guy survived. I think they are pretty over rated. Good for getting a survivable drone controller out there but that's it. Their firepower barely contributed to the battle. Tau already has more than enough STR5 weapons and one fusion blaster in 3 is not enough to make up for it. They weren't bad by any means, but definitely of all the units I took to my tournament the ones who performed the poorest compared to how highly they are rated. Someone on this forum ranked them at a C rank in our unit tiers and I have to agree.

 GI_Redshirt wrote:
Stealth Suits are fantastic this edition. IMO they're the best non-FW battlesuit we have after Commanders.

For just over 200 points, you get a 6 man team with a Shas'Vre and 2 FBs. They're the only suit to stay the same price as last edition, and still got a statline buff! T4 2W is awesome for them. They're just a flat -1 to hit at all times (including in CC) and can deploy anywhere on the board outside of the opponent's deployment zone and more than 12" away from enemy units (bear in mind this just normal deployment, so they can still move, advance, shoot, and charge as normal 1st turn). They have FLY and an 8" move so they'll never be locked down in combat and can go over any terrain they want if they have the movement to do so. They're the only battlesuit to retain the INFANTRY keyword, meaning they just need to be in terrain to get the cover bonus (and since they can deploy almost anywhere they want they will be in cover at the start of the game). The Shas'Vre gives them Ld 8, which combined with Bonding Knife Ritual means that they have to lose 4 models before they even have a chance of failing morale, so they're not going anywhere like that. 6 models with T4, 2W, a 2+ save and an always on -1 to hit is insanely durable and will eat far more than their points cost worth of shooting. And that's just their defensive capabilities. 4 BCs gives you 16 S5 shots at 18" range and 2 FB gives you 2 extra range melta shots to punch above their weight class. Might not be the best in our index and other units can put out similar firepower, but it's certainly nothing to underestimate. And lets not forget that in 8th every Stealth Suit can take Support Systems now. Take ATSs and make all those BCs S5 AP -1. Take Shield Gens and make them damn near impossible to kill. Take CDSs and make their overwatch incredibly potent. My personal go to on Stealth Suits currently is Multi-trackers for all of them. For 2 points a pop, a model with an MT rerolls 1s to hit if they shoot all their weapons at the same target. Stealth Suits only have 1 weapon, so they always get the benefit. You're essentially paying 12 points so the entire unit is rerolling 1s to hit all game. Makes them much more reliable and very independent as they don't need as much markerlight support, allowing you to allocate it to different targets and spread the rerolling love.

These guys have been my MVPs pretty much every game I've played (only had 1 game in 8th where my Stealth Suit team was wiped out). I highly recommend them to any and all Tau players, these guys are certainly the winners in the switchover to 8th (Commanders were already almost always taken in previous editions so their popularity hasn't changed, just the role they fill), and outside of some massive nerfs to them when our codex drops, they're gonna be a mainstay for this edition for us.

That's an interesting perspective. I've used them frequently, but only at a minimum size squad for the dual purposes of a) boosting my commander's teleport range for that sweet, sweet melta range bonus and b) line breaking and objective seizing. using them as a dedicated units... well, that actually bear thinking on.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/733114.page

Give you a very basic idea of what is good or not

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
I'm generally happy with a lot of the changes to Tau - the things that got nerfed (Riptide, Crisis) were units that needed it. Remember - most units got a points increase, so be careful with labeling things as "overcosted."

Fly on so many suits lets them get away from melee without penalty, which might be a bit too strong. Commanders are incredibly powerful, and I predict spam of them will be a thing. Classic gunlines got somewhat of a breath of fresh air and markerlights fit my mental image of how they work now. Rerolling 1's is no small benefit and shouldn't be overlooked - hello, overcharge.

I'm not using the word "overcosted" lightly. The riptides are... I don't want to say useless, but I have very little reason for taking one in a competitive list. The increased wounds list seems nice until you realize it's there to compensate for the wound multipliers every army list has. They cost over a 100 points more for roughly the same amount of shooting, and taking a mortal wound for that nova profile is not really something you're likely to do more than once or twice. Mediocre shooting for its cost, and an easy target for lascannons and missiles, it's simply not nearly as worthwhile as it needs to be.

Crisis units did NOT, I repeat NOT need a nerf. I cannot stress this enough, I mean did you even play Tau? In 7th they were at least viable with a buffmander and a special character like farsight or shadowsun- you could build a sort of decent death star with them, even though they were totally overshadowed by the riptide and stormsurge. Here, they're totally overcosted for what amounts to really mediocre survivability and firepower. The markerlight nerf only makes this worse. Everything they do, I can get more effectively elsewhere. With the exception of flamers and maybe plasma rifles, there is literally nothing they can do that other units wouldn't do better for their cost. They are quite possibly the least useful unit in the tau arsenal at the moment.

Rerolling 1s is nice, but it's a paltry effort compared to the markerlights of old. Given how people focus down markerlights, it's really rare for me to get a 5 token marker more than once in a game, and anything less is damn near useless.

Martel732 wrote:
What's happening to assault cannons now?

No longer a wargear choice for dreadnoughts. At least, that's the rumor. There's a video on youtube where someone with the book talks through the major changes.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
I'm generally happy with a lot of the changes to Tau - the things that got nerfed (Riptide, Crisis) were units that needed it. Remember - most units got a points increase, so be careful with labeling things as "overcosted."

Fly on so many suits lets them get away from melee without penalty, which might be a bit too strong. Commanders are incredibly powerful, and I predict spam of them will be a thing. Classic gunlines got somewhat of a breath of fresh air and markerlights fit my mental image of how they work now. Rerolling 1's is no small benefit and shouldn't be overlooked - hello, overcharge.

You seem to be in the minority. I think even Frankie and Reece are starting to have their eyes opened when they hosted that meta report on frontline the "Tau are fine and perfectly balanced" talk was nowhere to be seen and while the article focused on what is good I can assure you if it talked about what was bad the Tau would be there.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
What's happening to assault cannons now?

No longer a wargear choice for dreadnoughts. At least, that's the rumor. There's a video on youtube where someone with the book talks through the major changes.

I believe you mean auto cannon as that's not included in the kits.

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

I'm not using the word "overcosted" lightly. The riptides are... I don't want to say useless, but I have very little reason for taking one in a competitive list...

Crisis units did NOT, I repeat NOT need a nerf. I cannot stress this enough, I mean did you even play Tau? In 7th they were at least viable with a buffmander and a special character like farsight or shadowsun- you could build a sort of decent death star with them, even though they were totally overshadowed by the riptide and stormsurge. Here, they're totally overcosted for what amounts to really mediocre survivability and firepower. The markerlight nerf only makes this worse. Everything they do, I can get more effectively elsewhere. With the exception of flamers and maybe plasma rifles, there is literally nothing they can do that other units wouldn't do better for their cost. They are quite possibly the least useful unit in the tau arsenal at the moment.

Rerolling 1s is nice, but it's a paltry effort compared to the markerlights of old. Given how people focus down markerlights, it's really rare for me to get a 5 token marker more than once in a game, and anything less is damn near useless.

So, what I'm hearing here is, "I wish I could spam Riptides again competitively because that was my old strategy and use my old markerlights with my old units." Crisis suits are nowhere near as bad as you're melodramatically making them out to be, and you're hurting your case by making accusations.

8th is a very different edition, and it's a different game. I mean, I'm all for being unhappy about a change you disliked - but what's important is handling it properly. If it's still that big of an issue, find some people and play 7th. You can only blame the world for so long before it becomes the same old song.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

I'm not using the word "overcosted" lightly. The riptides are... I don't want to say useless, but I have very little reason for taking one in a competitive list...

Crisis units did NOT, I repeat NOT need a nerf. I cannot stress this enough, I mean did you even play Tau? In 7th they were at least viable with a buffmander and a special character like farsight or shadowsun- you could build a sort of decent death star with them, even though they were totally overshadowed by the riptide and stormsurge. Here, they're totally overcosted for what amounts to really mediocre survivability and firepower. The markerlight nerf only makes this worse. Everything they do, I can get more effectively elsewhere. With the exception of flamers and maybe plasma rifles, there is literally nothing they can do that other units wouldn't do better for their cost. They are quite possibly the least useful unit in the tau arsenal at the moment.

Rerolling 1s is nice, but it's a paltry effort compared to the markerlights of old. Given how people focus down markerlights, it's really rare for me to get a 5 token marker more than once in a game, and anything less is damn near useless.

So, what I'm hearing here is, "I wish I could spam Riptides again competitively because that was my old strategy and use my old markerlights with my old units." Crisis suits are nowhere near as bad as you're melodramatically making them out to be, and you're hurting your case by making accusations.

8th is a very different edition, and it's a different game. I mean, I'm all for being unhappy about a change you disliked - but what's important is handling it properly. If it's still that big of an issue, find some people and play 7th. You can only blame the world for so long before it becomes the same old song.

This is incredibly belittling and you're going to find that your opinion is in the minority. Sounds like someone got stomped out too much in 7th by Tau and is still salty about it.

Tau are bad this edition, and anyone who plays a non-spam Commander list will tell you that. Riptides were basically torn apart and turned into paperweights - only casual players just starting the army would use one, and then not for long after realizing how bad they are. As you mentioned, the markerlight table also needs a complete reworking considering how ineffective it is. It's sad, but GW went too far the other way with the nerf hammer after all the community outcry over the Riptide Wing.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

I'm not using the word "overcosted" lightly. The riptides are... I don't want to say useless, but I have very little reason for taking one in a competitive list...

Crisis units did NOT, I repeat NOT need a nerf. I cannot stress this enough, I mean did you even play Tau? In 7th they were at least viable with a buffmander and a special character like farsight or shadowsun- you could build a sort of decent death star with them, even though they were totally overshadowed by the riptide and stormsurge. Here, they're totally overcosted for what amounts to really mediocre survivability and firepower. The markerlight nerf only makes this worse. Everything they do, I can get more effectively elsewhere. With the exception of flamers and maybe plasma rifles, there is literally nothing they can do that other units wouldn't do better for their cost. They are quite possibly the least useful unit in the tau arsenal at the moment.

Rerolling 1s is nice, but it's a paltry effort compared to the markerlights of old. Given how people focus down markerlights, it's really rare for me to get a 5 token marker more than once in a game, and anything less is damn near useless.

So, what I'm hearing here is, "I wish I could spam Riptides again competitively because that was my old strategy and use my old markerlights with my old units." Crisis suits are nowhere near as bad as you're melodramatically making them out to be, and you're hurting your case by making accusations.

8th is a very different edition, and it's a different game. I mean, I'm all for being unhappy about a change you disliked - but what's important is handling it properly. If it's still that big of an issue, find some people and play 7th. You can only blame the world for so long before it becomes the same old song.

He never said he wanted to spam Riptides again. I don't either, but I want them balanced enough where taking on in en army isn't an auto lose. Not to mention the only Tau suits winning lists are commander suits and not crisis suits. People only take crisis if they can't fit anymore commanders in a list and even then that's more out of desperation than anything. I think the biggest problem with Tau is that everything is simply too expensive and ML's need a small boost.

Also fly is rarely relevant. Anything that charges Tau will almost always kill them in melee If by some miracle the Tau unit makes it out it will be heavily damaged and maybe only a single suit left to fire easily picked off by what ranged weapons the enemy has due to plink damage. The real reason we want points decreases for these is that without Tau commanders we have no cost effective anti-tank and certainly no good long range anti-tank. The mathhammer has been posted more than enough times to show that hammerheads are completely inferior to a las predator tank and more expensive platform. Even with Longstrike he merely evens the odds a bit on the math rather than outright making them better.

So, what I'm hearing here is, "I wish I could spam Riptides again competitively because that was my old strategy and use my old markerlights with my old units." Crisis suits are nowhere near as bad as you're melodramatically making them out to be, and you're hurting your case by making accusations.

8th is a very different edition, and it's a different game. I mean, I'm all for being unhappy about a change you disliked - but what's important is handling it properly. If it's still that big of an issue, find some people and play 7th. You can only blame the world for so long before it becomes the same old song.

I mean if you want to be a sarcastic dick rather than address the arguments I made, that's up to you.

Was I happy about the stale, riptide-spammy meta for Tau? No, I wasn't. But I ran a riptide wing supported by a stormsurge and drone commander all the same, because if I didn't I'd get floored by the numerous hardcore cheese lists out there. Every tournament I went to had space marines and eldar and such that would have thoroughly wrecked my gak if I didn't bring the very hardest stuff.
The new riptide: less survivable than the old riptide. Same damage output. More than a whole 100 pts more expensive. I'm not asking for a return to the riptide wing era where you'd spam and spam and spam riptides until you won. I'm asking for a fairly priced unit that I can take in my army without it being a waste of points.

The crisis suits. Are. Bad. I've given several reasons why. I'll repeat: everything they do excepting one or two specific roles can be done elsewhere more cost effectively. They're unreliable at shooting. They're not very survivable. The bonuses they've gained do not make up for the cost they gained. They'd be all right if they didn't eat up such a large chunk of my points.

Also fly is rarely relevant. Anything that charges Tau will almost always kill them in melee If by some miracle the Tau unit makes it out it will be heavily damaged and maybe only a single suit left to fire easily picked off by what ranged weapons the enemy has due to plink damage. The real reason we want points decreases for these is that without Tau commanders we have no cost effective anti-tank and certainly no good long range anti-tank.

The new assault rules has made combat more survivable, but that considered, we still get shot to pieces all the same. The comment about the fusion commander is EXACTLY right- without them, we'd be all but useless as a faction. More wounds and fly=/=adequate compensation for the price increase.

And again. ALL of this would be more doable if the markerlights weren't so gak.

What you want is this:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/726989.page

 Gamgee wrote:
My stealth teams got wiped pretty easily in 8th by Gulliman list. Not quite one turn but he did roll badly and only one guy survived. I think they are pretty over rated. Good for getting a survivable drone controller out there but that's it. Their firepower barely contributed to the battle. Tau already has more than enough STR5 weapons and one fusion blaster in 3 is not enough to make up for it. They weren't bad by any means, but definitely of all the units I took to my tournament the ones who performed the poorest compared to how highly they are rated. Someone on this forum ranked them at a C rank in our unit tiers and I have to agree.

I'd be curious to see how many you ran and what exactly you did with them. If you're taking min squads to get a DC and a homing beacon on the board, yeah they're probably gonna die fairly easily and quickly. If you're using them as a homing beacon taxi, you're not worrying about their positioning as you only care about getting that homing beacon down so that your Fusion Commander or trip-flamer Crisis Team is coming down in optimal range, most likely next to one of your opponents deadliest units. Odds are the Stealth Suits will be forced out of position to make that happen, right next to your opponent's deadliest stuff. Very little in the game could survive like that. Same with using them for DC. Doing that, you're gonna be more concerned about making sure the Gun Drones are properly positioned to target the right unit due to targeting protocols, which will probably leave the Stealth Suits again out of position and vulnerable to enemy fire.

I also think you're underselling S5. Sure we get it in a lot of places, but it's also one of the best weapon strength values out there, as it wounds pretty much all infantry on 3s and there's nothing in the game (outside of FW stuff I think) that it doesn't wound on at least 5s. Being "only S5" is kinda a uniquely Tau problem and its not as bad as you're making it out to be. Sure its our standard strength gun, but the attitude of "S7/S8 or nothing" is going to make 90% of our army look bad regardless of if they are or not. And being able to take a melta equivalent per only 3 models is something most other armies would kill for. Don't get me wrong, I wish Stealth Suits had the weapon versatility that Crisis Teams have, but Crisis Suits are kinda unique in the entire game in that regard.

I'm not saying they're our best unit period. I'm not saying they're an S-class unit. But they're good. Limiting them to a glorified homing beacon taxi or drone babysitter is a waste of their potential, and IMO a waste of points. A kitted out max squad of these little guys is gonna do work. No, they're not gonna stand up to the wrath of an entire 2000 point list rerolling all failed hits and wounds thanks to something like the Girlyman, but then again I don't think there's any unit in the game that can, let alone a 200 point unit. Kit them out to actually do work (6 man team, 2 FB, 'Vre, all with support systems), use them as their own unit (not a taxi service/babysitter for someone else), and understand their strengths and weaknesses, and I'm pretty sure you'll be surprised at what these little guys can do.

I haven't played in any super hyper competitive tournaments so I'm not exactly sure what a tau list would look like in that regard. Probably just as many commanders as you could fit in a list? The detachment you're looking for in regards to Tau hyper cheese is the Supreme Command Detachment. 3-5 HQs, 0-1 Elites, and 0-1 LOW.

That being said, I've been doing fine in my area usually running a list of a fusion command, a coldstar, a fireblade, some stealth suits, some crisis suits, a riptide, a ghostkeel, some vespid, about 30 firewarriors and a fair amount of drones. That is a very paraphrased 2k points list.

Commanders are the best unit we have.
Coldstar commanders are effectively immortal being a character with a 40" movement as long as you're not brain dead with their positioning.
Fireblades are great. 2+ markerlight hit is awesome to support commanders and buffing FW is sweet.

Stealth suits are also awesome. I mean they've gotten buffed like 3 straight editions in a row now. 2+ save in cover with 2 wounds and -1 to hit? Mine often die in the first turn, but it usually takes literally my opponents entire army shooting them to do this, which is usually worth. They infiltrate, if they get charged its basically your fault.

Crisis suits are better than you make them sound. They're worse than commanders, but that's everything in our codex not named "gun drone" so they're still pretty good. They're guaranteed a turn of shooting against a target of your choice and you can position them to take minimal return fire as necessary. Give them a handful of drones and your opponent really shouldn't be able to kill them off quickly at all as they shrug of small arms fire quite well.

The riptide is bad. Not literally unplayable bad (like vespid used to be), but just pretty poor (kinda like hammerheads last edition?). They're still extremely hard to put down with a few drones flitting about them. I've been running mine with DC and a swarm of 8 markerdrones hiding in my backfield and it does fine as an artillery piece.

Ghostkeel really really need LOS blocking terrain. If you have that to park the stealth drones behind it is stupid difficult to kill. Like way harder to put down than a riptide. Without LOS blocking terrain for the drones, it's much worse but not awful.

Notice that I keep saying drones are good? Buy big suits, give them all a handful of shield/marker/gun drones to take lascannon shots, hide the drones behind buildings to avoid small arms fire, and your big suits will take forever to actually put down.

Vespid are like cheap crisis suits. They have a guaranteed alpha strike on something which is super strong. Then they're pretty glass filled. Worse than commanders but still rather good.


The main thing I think Tau need is a better markerlight table. All of our guns hitting on 4+ just makes so many units too unreliable for their points. Commanders benefit most strongly from our current table. If Re-roll ones got replaced with flat +1 BS, I bet a lot more of our units would be viable.

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:


Hammerheads are decent, although still suffer from the 1-in-all problem of having a single shot that can easily whiff, especially with heavy movement. The best way to field hammerheads is with longstrike, who not only hits on a 2+, but can boost other hammerheads within 6' to do the same. Points wise, Hammerheads are now more better than broadsides, for about the same amount of shooting but with better BS and better staying power.

If you have 5 markerlights on the target, the Hammerhead has a 97% chance to hit while on the move.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Markerlights are cheap (3 points) and you can get them in bulk. They benefot the firing unit, they can fire at a different target, and the benefit each other. You should get one on every shas'ui. You should have no problem getting 5 on an enemy unit that you want taken out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They also duplicate the effects of most support systems, meaning you don't have to buy them.

Alcibiades wrote:

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:


Hammerheads are decent, although still suffer from the 1-in-all problem of having a single shot that can easily whiff, especially with heavy movement. The best way to field hammerheads is with longstrike, who not only hits on a 2+, but can boost other hammerheads within 6' to do the same. Points wise, Hammerheads are now more better than broadsides, for about the same amount of shooting but with better BS and better staying power.

If you have 5 markerlights on the target, the Hammerhead has a 97% chance to hit while on the move.

Neat...
33.3% chance to fail on wounding

I don't want to have to repeat myself like for the 9th time
Hammerheads sound great, but then you realize you only get a single shot.

 Talamare wrote:


Neat...
33.3% chance to fail on wounding

I don't want to have to repeat myself like for the 9th time
Hammerheads sound great, but then you realize you only get a single shot.

With a 65% chance to wound, which is not bad at all.

Now, I am simply addressing the comment that moving was going to increase its chance of whiffing.

Post edited because I was unnecessarily confrontational.

Alcibiades wrote:

 Talamare wrote:


Neat...
33.3% chance to fail on wounding

I don't want to have to repeat myself like for the 9th time
Hammerheads sound great, but then you realize you only get a single shot.

Like lascannons and missile cannons and 90% of heavy weapons firing at a hard target?

Lascannon Predator
4 Lascannon Shots
~ 200 points

Devastator/Havoc Squad
4 Lascannon Shots
~150 points

Heavy Weapons Squad
6 Lascannon Shots
~140 points

Dreadnought
2 Lascannon + 1 Missile Shot
~140 points

Railgun 1 shot
~180 points

I had my stealth suits in two teams of 3. In game one against ultra I had them spread out far trying to get them in ruins but all the guns of the opponent out ranged me. He took down my Ta'unar and then focused on them. He had so much firepower to spare I doubt an extra 6 suits would have mattered it wasn't uncommon for him to completely overkill squads and there was a fortress of redemption in the middle of the board really blocking my line of sight so I couldn't get any good sight lines and both objectives were close to the centre. One of the suit teams survived long enough to last a round of shooting but by then he had a fusion blaster left and a single shot was doing nothing. My list wasn't the most competitive since I really lack models to even proxy the good stuff this edition. So no commander proxies so all I had was one.

Game two I had fantastic sight lines set up and my Ta'unar annihilated just over a third of his flyers in one beta strike. My firewarriors contributed decent plink damage even without my cadre fireblade who got sniped by vindicare. My commander dropped in the next turn and another strike from the Ta'unar with more plink damage. Top of my turn 3 he forfeited the game since he had only three flyers left and all of them had 1 wound and I had every objective in the kill the heavy mission and even the random objectives on the map, slay the warlord, and line breaker. The Stealth suits didn't contribute much only on the final turn when his flyers would have finally come around would they maybe have done something. I guess they provided a drone controller support? I deployed them a little further back after the last game since I wanted my drone buffs.

Ultimately I didn't find them all that useful. Even if I was to take a true commander spam list I would probably just take one for the drop beacon.

Ultimately a very niche unit. It barely did anything even in optimal situations that my troops weren't doing better due to their range.

 Talamare wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 Talamare wrote:


Neat...
33.3% chance to fail on wounding

I don't want to have to repeat myself like for the 9th time
Hammerheads sound great, but then you realize you only get a single shot.

Like lascannons and missile cannons and 90% of heavy weapons firing at a hard target?

Lascannon Predator
4 Lascannon Shots
~ 200 points

Devastator/Havoc Squad
4 Lascannon Shots
~150 points


Railgun 1 shot
~180 points

Yeah I can add too.

These do about 1.5 times the damage on average to a Land Raider. They are also less durable, have no antiinfantry capability to speak of, and are far less mobile.
.

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I'll agree in regards to Forgeworld. Some of these units are incredibly strong.

For Tau - and, I hate doing this, because it's such a nasty unit and invalidates my army completely - you should use the Y'varhna Riptide.

1. 18" fly move.
2. 2+/4++ statline, with a 3++ against melee.
3. 3d6 strenght 6, ap-2, 2 damage flamer.
4. strength 10 anti-tank weaponry
5. Has numerous upgrade options including shield drones.
6. 14 wounds, 7 toughness

All of this for about 400 points, and it's only a FA.

It's immune to assault. It blows up tanks. The optimal weaponry against it - assault cannons - are getting their pants nerfed off in the new SM codex.

Yeah I kinda see no other options, despite the absurd pricing for one. I honestly think it's kind of disgraceful that forgeworld models can just dictate victory like this, but I don't see much of any choice if I want to be competitive.

I mean, how is this different from scatterbikes dictating victory in every single Eldar army until very recent?
Most competitive players might want FW models to become completely useless because that would mean cheaper competitive armies but don't act like this is purely a FW problem.