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These questions came up recently among my usual gaming group and we couldn't quite come to a consensus on the right RAW interpretation for them.

1. When a unit of space marines is split into combat squads, is each 5-man squad a separate deployment? So if you have four 10-man tactical squads and split them all up, do you now need eight deployments to get them all onto the table?

2. For purposes of tactical reserves and determining how many units can be kept off the table, do combat squads each count as one unit or do you only count the single parent unit? I assume the same interpretation would apply if the combat squaded unit is on the table or in reserves.

3. Does a unit embarked in a transport count as one or two units "on the battlefield" for figuring out if half of your army's units are on the battlefield or not? Would deploying outside of transports then allow you to put more units into tactical reserves?

The only ruling on this type of thing is here:

Q: For the purposes of the Tactical Reserves matched play rule, do units that act separately after they have been set up (e.g. Mek Gunz and their Grot Crew, T'au Battlesuits and their Drones, units that have the Vehicle Squadron ability, etc.) count as being a single unit, or several units?
A: Such units are a single unit for the purposes of the Tactical Reserves rule.

But since combat squads split before deployment, I don t believe this ruling applies to them, and each squad counts separately if they are split. So:

1) They are each a separate.deployment as they split before deployment.

2) Separate units, as they split before deployment.

3) RAW units in transports aren't on the table. But I think you'd be hard pressed to find a tournament judge, for example, that would rule that way when it comes to this particular rule, as it makes no sense to do so.

I'd agree with all of that, Yakface.

+1 to what Yakface said.

For this purpose of setting up a unit in a transport only counts as 1 unit so it's actually only fair for it to limit your tactical reserves.

Example Someone might deploy 6 squads in rhino's on the table to get a better chance at going first and then want to have 12 units in tactical reserves.

Units in transports are not on the table. So if you deploy 6 squads in rhino's you can have up to 6 squads in tactical reserves.

Otherwise I agree with everything Yakface said.

Wagguy80 wrote:
For this purpose of setting up a unit in a transport only counts as 1 unit so it's actually only fair for it to limit your tactical reserves.

I disagree. The transports have been valued up quite high, which IMO is because they allow you do deploy 2 (or even more) units with single deployment.

To me the 50% must be deployed on table is fair, I have no problem with that. But what I don't like at all is the vagueness of the rules with embarked units. Consider this example:
I call One deployment made by player in Deployment phase as Unique Deployment, regardless if it is 1 HQ or Transport+2 Units inside.
1 Unit deployed on table inside Rhino (1 Unique Deployment). 2 Units deployed on actual tactical reserves (2 Unique Deployments).
So total of 4 units were deployed as 3 Unique Deployments.
Now because of RAW Transport rules you have actually deployed 1 unit on table (1 over 4), 1 in Limbo/Netherworld because it is embarked on transport (1 over 4), 2 in Tactical Reserves (2 over 4).
So in total you have deployed 1 of your 4 units on table (25%) which RAW is illegal deployment. This is problem. Clearly 1 unit deployed on table embarked on transport should be considered as 2 units on table like it actually is.

Funny thing about these rules is also the fact that unit deployed inside transport will be destroyed if it doesn't disembark by the end of 3rd Turn:
"..any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of third battle round counts as having been destroyed." BRB p. 215.
I could see this happening to some people if they use transport vehicles to ferry small units to sit on objectives. And for the record I consider this to be very appropriate way to use the transports, and even more expensive ones if they can keep on firing at enemy when doing it.

Like I said in beginning, I think majority of large price on transport comes from the ability to:
A)Control the amount of Unique Deployments
B)The mobility they provide
C)The cover they provide.
Additionally if the rules force you in most cases to deploy outside transport as shown in example, I would say the transports are horrendously overcosted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wagguy80 wrote:
Example Someone might deploy 6 squads in rhino's on the table to get a better chance at going first and then want to have 12 units in tactical reserves.

Units in transports are not on the table. So if you deploy 6 squads in rhino's you can have up to 6 squads in tactical reserves.

I don't see any problem in player deploying 6 squads in 6 rhinos and then having 12 units in tactical reserves. You are paying premium to do this already with the rhinos, 6 CSM rhinos is 432 pts which easily buys one a knight. Especially when Rhinos alone by themselves are not good at all, they enable other units to function.

Wagguy80 wrote:Units in transports are not on the table. So if you deploy 6 squads in rhino's you can have up to 6 squads in tactical reserves.

Otherwise I agree with everything Yakface said.

I think this is what Yakface said. He just went on to say that he didn't expect many people to use this interpretation, even if it seems to be correct RAW.

Ghorgul wrote:Funny thing about these rules is also the fact that unit deployed inside transport will be destroyed if it doesn't disembark by the end of 3rd Turn:
"..any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of third battle round counts as having been destroyed." BRB p. 215.
I could see this happening to some people if they use transport vehicles to ferry small units to sit on objectives. And for the record I consider this to be very appropriate way to use the transports, and even more expensive ones if they can keep on firing at enemy when doing it.

Ouch. This never occurred to me and I can't think of think of any reason why it would not be true if embarked units don't count as being on the battlefield.

Except transported units are in no way listed as not being on the battlefield in the rules. Sure they don't effect it but thas not the same thing.

U02dah4 wrote:
Except transported units are in no way listed as not being on the battlefield in the rules. Sure they don't effect it but thas not the same thing.

Sure it does (emphasis mine):

Embark: If all models in a unit end their move within 3" of a friendly transport, they can embark within it. Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked inside the transport.

It doesn't say you just remove the models, the whole unit is removed from the battlefield. So the rules would need to specify that the unit counts as being on the battlefield when embarked to overcome what that rule says.

No that doesn't mean that embarked units are not on the battlefield.

That phrase specifically covers models already on the battlefield and means that when you embark you remove the unit (meaning physical models) from the battlefield. It doesn't say those models once removed no longer count as being on the battlefield- they are they are just embarked. Otherwise how would transports with firepoints work. #Select a unit not on the battlefield to shoot with.

Furthermore for that rule to even be stretched in that way you would have to be on the battlefield to be removed to be embarked eliminating the destruction clause just like GSC going back to reserves after deploying.

 yakface wrote:
It doesn't say you just remove the models, the whole unit is removed from the battlefield. So the rules would need to specify that the unit counts as being on the battlefield when embarked to overcome what that rule says.

Not necessarily. The wording of the rule is, ""...any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round counts as having been destroyed." Instead of a rule to specify that a unit counts as being on the battlefield when embarked, a rule could tell us directly that units embarked within a transport arrive when that transport arrives, like these:

Reserves (BRB, p. 194):

The mission will usually state when the units placed in Reserve arrive on the battlefield – this is typically at the end of a particular Movement phase. ... Note that if a unit placed into Reserve is embarked within a TRANSPORT, they will arrive when their transport does, not separately (if rolling, make a single roll for the transport and the units embarked in it).

Planetary Assault (BRB, p. 256)

Note that if a unit placed in Reserve is embarked within a TRANSPORT, they will arrive when their transport does, not separately (if rolling, make a single roll for the transport and its embarked units).

Since I don't think there are a lot of transports that come in as reinforcements outside of the Reserve rules, that probably covers the majority of examples, and datasheet special rules would cover the rest. (I mean, I don't think there's a lot of confusion about whether or not units embarked within a Space Marine drop pod have arrived.)

That leaves units embarked within a transport that is set up on the battlefield. The thing there is that the Tactical Reserves section (BRB, p. 215), where the rule we're talking about is located, makes it pretty clear what kinds of units the rules in the section apply to:

Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. ... Furthermore, ... any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round counts as having been destroyed.

The bolded rule is a modification of this one, from the Reinforcements section of the core rules (BRB, p. 177):

Any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the battle counts as having been destroyed.

Also, "arrive on the battlefield" is used consistently, and as far as I can tell exclusively, in the context of reinforcements.

In that light, the trigger "has not arrived" clearly refers to reinforcements that have not yet arrived on the battlefield. I see no reason to treat transports that start on the board or units that start embarked within them as reinforcements, so I see no reason to apply the rule to either -- whether embarked units are counted as being on the board or not.

Ghorgul wrote:

Funny thing about these rules is also the fact that unit deployed inside transport will be destroyed if it doesn't disembark by the end of 3rd Turn:
"..any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of third battle round counts as having been destroyed." BRB p. 215.
I could see this happening to some people if they use transport vehicles to ferry small units to sit on objectives. And for the record I consider this to be very appropriate way to use the transports, and even more expensive ones if they can keep on firing at enemy when doing it.

As long as the player remembers to disemark them on the table before the end of the third battle round, he can always load them up again his next turn and have them sit on the objective. The opponent just gets one one turn to try to get them while they're out of their vehicle.

Would this rule also apply to units that were deployed inside buildings?

Once the unit has arrived on the battlefield, it cannot be destroyed for not having arrived on the battlefield.

And I get that yak's beef is with the poor wording and lack of consistency when dealing with embarking units. They say "remove your models from the battlefield" instead of "pick up your toy men" because it sounds cooler.

 doctortom wrote:

Ghorgul wrote:

Funny thing about these rules is also the fact that unit deployed inside transport will be destroyed if it doesn't disembark by the end of 3rd Turn:
"..any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of third battle round counts as having been destroyed." BRB p. 215.
I could see this happening to some people if they use transport vehicles to ferry small units to sit on objectives. And for the record I consider this to be very appropriate way to use the transports, and even more expensive ones if they can keep on firing at enemy when doing it.

As long as the player remembers to disemark them on the table before the end of the third battle round, he can always load them up again his next turn and have them sit on the objective. The opponent just gets one one turn to try to get them while they're out of their vehicle.

Would this rule also apply to units that were deployed inside buildings?

No he doesn't need to get them out

U02dah4 wrote:
No he doesn't need to get them out

Well no, he doesn't NEED to get them out, but they will be destroyed if he doesn't.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
No he doesn't need to get them out

Well no, he doesn't NEED to get them out, but they will be destroyed if he doesn't.

Contest is a thing
The thing in this case tells you that the rule for being destroyed on applies to those units arriving as reinforcements

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
No he doesn't need to get them out

Well no, he doesn't NEED to get them out, but they will be destroyed if he doesn't.

Contest is a thing
The thing in this case tells you that the rule for being destroyed on applies to those units arriving as reinforcements

Except that isn't what the rule says. It says "any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of third battle round counts as having been destroyed." Models that begin in transports have never arrived on the battlefield.

Models that are embarked have setup on the table, which is arriving.

" When you setup you can start embarked in a transport instead of being setup separately"

That the models have restrictions on how they can act, and the physical model is removed from the battlefield doesn't change that they are setup, and have arrived, if embarked.

Further being setup has no tie in with arriving, arriving is something reinforcements do when they are setup after deployment.

I agree with blaktoof, they are talking able 2 different things. One has to do with embarked units which are on the table just inside a vehicle and the has to do with keeping a bunch of deep striking units in reserve so you can just drop them in on the last turn to grab objectives.

So in other words they won't be destroyed so there is no need to remove them