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Hi,

Just wondering if there's anything I am missing here.

I just don't see any point to combat squadding tactical marines (and a lot of other marine units) anymore. In 8th you can even have heavy weapons in 5 man squads so why use the combat squad rule when you can have two 5-man squads instead for the same points and with the same weapons, and you now get a free sergeant with +1A and +1Ld (and possibly another weapon option). You also get more units to use for troop tax for more command points possibly.

The only good thing I see about combat squads now are the tactical flexibility to choose what you want after seeing your opponents army, but atleast in my cases that has rarely been something I need.

So am I missing something here?

- You can get more Units in Deepstrike reserve, because the Unit now counts as 2!
- You can put all special weapons (Plasmagun, Plasmacanon and Combi Weapon of your seargent) in a 5 Man squad, put it in a Razorback and drive forward, while a cheap 5 man unit does something else.
- You can move them seperately -> hold more objectives
- The enemy has to splitfire (which is an advantage even in 8th ed.)

Aeri wrote:
- You can get more Units in Deepstrike reserve, because the Unit now counts as 2!
- You can put all special weapons (Plasmagun, Plasmacanon and Combi Weapon of your seargent) in a 5 Man squad, put it in a Razorback and drive forward, while a cheap 5 man unit does something else.
- You can move them seperately -> hold more objectives
- The enemy has to splitfire (which is an advantage even in 8th ed.)

Your second point is good, and something I didn't think of. However your 1st, 3rd and 4th points are moot as having 2 separate squads of 5 marines can also move separately, and also forces your enemy to splitfire.

There's some edge cases in tournament play. For example some units you may keep as a max unit vs some opponents when splitting them is the difference between finishing deployment first or not, if you really want the first turn. Vs other opponents where you'll deffo finish deployment first (or second) regardless, you split them up for the reasons you state.

But tyically it's just not worth it. Most tacs should start in rhinos or razorbacks anyway, so they won't be counting as drops either way. You are much better off bringing 2 five man squads each with a special/heavy and Combi weapon (I have been liking the Combi plasma and heavy Grav cannon combo) than 1 ten man squad.

Honestly there's no point. You can just buy two separate squads and then have an additional Combi of some kind.

I literally came up with one use in 6th/7th, which was under the previous Carcharodons Chapter Tactics. The Tactical Marine squad was at the full 10 man squad, and was as follows:
X4 Bolters, Grav Cannon
X3 Bolters switched for a CCW, x2 extra CCW, Melta Gun and Combi-Melta
Drop Pod

You would Deep Strike and then split the squad like that. Either you get rid of the Grav Cannon or Melta Guns. Then the remainder does its job.

If you are going for the minimum Troops requirements for whatever Detachment you are building then go ahead and stick with three squads of five marines each.

Maybe its because I still have old-school 2nd Ed habits, but I still tend to take at least two full 10 man squads. I like their flexibility for missions - they did very well for me at a recent tournament. If we are playing with multiple objectives then I can form combat squads to let me cover more ground. If we are playing Kill Points then I leave the squads intact to give less possible kill points.

Because its not fun to lose 10 models total in the morale phase when only 5-6 died that turn.

Mathematically speaking, in a 10-man squad, if 6 models die, the others will flee due to morale.

Take two 10-man squads. Give them Plasma Gun & Lascannon. Give the Sgt. a Combi-Plasma and Powerwhatever. Combat squad them so you have:

2 x 4 Bolter Marines and a Lascannon
2 x 3 Bolter Matines, 1 Plasmagun, and the Sgt.

The first two Combat Squads set up in cover and shoot.

The second two get into the same Rhino and CHARGE!

Hilarity ensues.

Wouldn't it make more sense to break those up.

Team 1: 5 Boltguns
Team 2: 2 Boltguns + 1 Plasmagun + 1 Lascannon + Sgt with combi-plasma

For your combat squads?

phydaux wrote:
Take two 10-man squads. Give them Plasma Gun & Lascannon. Give the Sgt. a Combi-Plasma and Powerwhatever. Combat squad them so you have:

2 x 4 Bolter Marines and a Lascannon
2 x 3 Bolter Matines, 1 Plasmagun, and the Sgt.

The first two Combat Squads set up in cover and shoot.

The second two get into the same Rhino and CHARGE!

Hilarity ensues.

For this you could just do it as four 5-man squads instead and do the exact same thing, but now all squads, not only 2 of them, will have a sergeant for the exact same point cost. Also you will now fill 4 troop slots instead if you need it for detachments.

Wouldn't it make more sense to break those up.

Team 1: 5 Boltguns
Team 2: 2 Boltguns + 1 Plasmagun + 1 Lascannon + Sgt with combi-plasma

For your combat squads?

I agree, this makes much more sense if you are combat squadding them.

So in conclusion I now have this list:

Pros: (what you get when having a 10-man squad)
+ Possibility of having Heavy Weapon, Special Weapon and Sergeant with Combi-Weapon in the same 5 man squad.
+ Deciding after seeing opponents list, if you want to have it as a 10-man squad or combat squad. (could be good for tournaments)

Cons: (what you get when you bring two separate 5-man squads instead)
- Not getting a free sergeant with +1A, +1Ld.
- Only having the option for one Combi-Weapon instead of two (because of 1 less sergeant). (giving you a total of 4 better weapons per 10 marines instead of 3)
- Fills less detachment-slots that could get you more command points.

Atleast for my own lists I still think 5-man squads are better as the cons outweigh the pros. But thanks for the replies guys, I atleast got one more thing to think about that balances it out a bit more.

Depends on if you expect your lascannon to hit at 3+ or 4+. Remember it takes the -1 to-hit penalty for firing after moving, so don't expect it to be as reliable as having a backup squad laying back in cover firing while staying still. That's a 25% reduction in firepower, so beware. There's a good reason why guard heavy weapons teams spamming lascannons have a tough time taking down targets as basic as a Rhino.

yeah the split should almost always be heavy weapon and bolters in one, sgt+ special weapon in the other. If you put all the weapons in one combat squad you A.) lose out on ablative bolter wounds. B.) are giving the opponent less target saturation, they will always ignore the squad with the bolters in favor of killing the 118 pts of squishy 3+ marines and, C.) you either get a -1 to your heavy or waste your special/sgt weapon, both of which are bad options. 1 shot lascannons at 4+ is an inefficient use of points.

I stopped because 2 sergeants are better than maybe running a squad of 10 which I never did.

phydaux wrote:
Take two 10-man squads. Give them Plasma Gun & Lascannon. Give the Sgt. a Combi-Plasma and Powerwhatever. Combat squad them so you have:

2 x 4 Bolter Marines and a Lascannon
2 x 3 Bolter Matines, 1 Plasmagun, and the Sgt.

The first two Combat Squads set up in cover and shoot.

The second two get into the same Rhino and CHARGE!

Hilarity ensues.

You can do this with 2 5 man squads and have an extra Sgt with Combi-Plasma.

 Yuber wrote:
Because its not fun to lose 10 models total in the morale phase when only 5-6 died that turn.

Mathematically speaking, in a 10-man squad, if 6 models die, the others will flee due to morale.

That's a good point, but it doesn't offer a reason to use the Combat quad rule. It's a reason to use 5 man squads over 10 man squads. But it doesn't address that Combat Squad rule.


Best I can tell, there's no real reason to use the Combat Squad rule. Sgt's don't cost extra in points, so 2 bare bone 5 man squads costs the same points as 1 bare bones 10 man squad. Each 5 man squad can only have 1 heavy or special weapon, but it can't have 2 of each in a 10 man squad. If you want to run 5 man squads, I would just run a 5 man squad and leave the combat squad rule be. Running a 10 man squad split in 2 give you 1 dedicated transport option, 1 combi-weapon, 1 heavy weapon, and 1 Special weapon. Running 2 5 man squads gives you 2 Dedicated Transport, 2 Combi-weapons, and 2 Heavy or Special weapons.

Allot of stratagems work for one squad, e.g Raven Guard one or auspex. Also I think it is easier to get multiple 10 men squads into a bubble of an Aura then smaller squads.

 Bryan01 wrote:
Allot of stratagems work for one squad, e.g Raven Guard one or auspex. Also I think it is easier to get multiple 10 men squads into a bubble of an Aura then smaller squads.

That's not really what you use tacs for though.

Like, more important squads go full 10, sure, but tacs are to be, well, tactical. They're blockers and objective grabbers and area deniers. They don't put out damage.

Possibly, I think they dish out reasonable damage now with a heavy weapon, special and combi for their points, but your mileage may vary.

 Bryan01 wrote:
Possibly, I think they dish out reasonable damage now with a heavy weapon, special and combi for their points, but your mileage may vary.

not in any way that's point efficient.

Combat squading for the salamanders makes great sence. Have a 5 man group with a lascannon with re-rolls, have a 5 man group with a meltagun and/or powerfist. Re-rolls every where.

 Niiai wrote:
Combat squading for the salamanders makes great sence. Have a 5 man group with a lascannon with re-rolls, have a 5 man group with a meltagun and/or powerfist. Re-rolls every where.

Except you can just use 2 separate 5 man squads and get an extra Combi-Weapon.

Fluffy lists, or lists where you are limited in number of detachments by house rules.
I took a 102-man Space Marine company and found that Combat Squadding was very helpful in making it less bad.

Deployment manipulation is the only really valid reason at this point.

Especially since, if you want to spend the CP, you can split your 10 man squad after the game has started and get your 2x 5 man squads anyway.

But otherwise all the advantages are on 5 man squads currently.

I kinda get now what OP is trying to say, and I concur that there's no good reason to utilize combat squads when You can have 2 separate squads allowing you to have 2 sarges and 2 combis.

For non-Troop units it can be of use if you are limited in slots. In a battalion you only get 3 Fast Attack squads, so you might want to combat squad an assault squad to only take up one slot.

It also helps in tournaments with KP missions as you can choose to have fewer units on the table when it benefits you to do so.

It can help if you want the option to go first by keeping a few squads a single drops. If you leave combat squad drops until later your opponent might also decide to do things to minimize drops to make sure they go first and then you combat squad.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yuber wrote:
Because its not fun to lose 10 models total in the morale phase when only 5-6 died that turn.

Mathematically speaking, in a 10-man squad, if 6 models die, the others will flee due to morale.

This is simply not true. A 10 man marine squad is LD 8 (assuming no other buffs). So your morale check after 6 losses is D6-2. So to lose the other 4 models you need to roll a 6 on a re-rollable D6, so you have a 1/36 that the others will flee due to morale. 6 losses means you have a 55%(5/9th) chance to lose no models at all (need to roll a 2 or below with a re-roll), a 75 % chance that you lose 1 model or less, and an 89% chance that you lose 2 models or less.

Morale certainly matters more for 10 member squads than it does for 5 member squads (because they don't care at all, they die before it matters much), but it is hardly crippling.

I can see the point in bringing a 10 man unit.

I can see the point in bringing two 5 man units.

But I see no point in bringing a 10man unit and breaking it down to two 5man units over simply bringing two 5man units in the first place.
You loose out on extra (free) Sergeants with their Ld, Attack and weapon-options, and you only have 2 troops instead of 4 (i.e harder to fill out a detachment).
You gain ... nothing?

Combat Squading Tacticals was worth it before, when the sergeant wasn't free and you wanted the units to be cheap, but now? No, I see no point in it.

Yes, it's possible to get a special weapon and a heavy weapon in the same 5man squad, but this isn't something I can see myself do.

 MinscS2 wrote:
I can see the point in bringing a 10 man unit.

I can see the point in bringing two 5 man units.

But I see no point in bringing a 10man unit and breaking it down to two 5man units over simply bringing two 5man units in the first place.
You loose out on extra (free) Sergeants with their Ld, Attack and weapon-options, and you only have 2 troops instead of 4 (i.e harder to fill out a detachment).
You gain ... nothing?

Combat Squading Tacticals was worth it before, when the sergeant wasn't free and you wanted the units to be cheap, but now? No, I see no point in it.

Yes, it's possible to get a special weapon and a heavy weapon in the same 5man squad, but this isn't something I can see myself do.

Technically the Sergeant was always free. To get the Veteran one nobody cares about you'd have to pay (and there was never a point in paying).

Overkilling in CC is one, over killing by shooting is another

asides from that eh.

Hmm, with Raven Guard can you spend 1 cp to deploy both of these combat squads in two different places on the map?