Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was just looking into Goge Vandire in more detail and have found an issue with some of fluff.

The Holy Synod is a collection of Cardinals under the Eclessiarch in the Ministorum Hierarchy. Apparently formed by Sebastian Thor to prevent someone like Goge Vandire having so much power over the Eclessiarchy ever again.
Source:

Yet then there's conflicting fluff saying that Goge Vandire purged the Holy Synod of Cardinals during his rise to power in the Age of Apostasy... which couldn't happen if it was formed by Sebastian Thor after his reign.
Source:

I figure anything we read or hear through imperial channels is propaganda at best. Inconsistencies simply evidence the limits of the propagandists to keep all the lies coherent.

 jeff white wrote:
I figure anything we read or hear through imperial channels is propaganda at best. Inconsistencies simply evidence the limits of the propagandists to keep all the lies coherent.

This. Also not necessarily all propaganda. Plain old ignorance is also a powerful tool. Remember Hanlon's Razor: 'Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity'.

This should also be applied specifically to 40kwikia, given that it's a free-to-edit wiki with questionable accuracy in a number of cases.

Fair enough. I understand the point.

What's the more likely truth though? The Synod existing from before or set up after Vandire?

Hmmm, perhaps the Synod was already in place before and Vandire disbanded it as part of his grab for power. Afterwards, Sebastian Thor reformed the Synod with the express purpose of preventing it happening again.

You could keep both of those statements unchanged aside from replacing 'formed' with 'reformed'

I find lexicanum to be a more reliable source as they'll cite their sources for specific statements.

In this case, though I haven't gotten to that part of the books yet, the Holy Synod is apparently referred to as existing before Vandire's rise to power in the Beast Arises series.

We do, however, know that Vandire purged a great deal of higher ranking cardinals and inserted ones that favored him, so it's safe to assume that if the Holy Synod existed at the time (and it likely did, given the nature of the organization and its representation on Terra) it was significantly compromised during the age of apostasy.

With that in mind, it's safe to say that Thor re-created the Synod after purging Vandire's influence as best he could. We also know he created the Synod Ministra, a second governing party based on Ophelia VII through which all Ecclesiarchy edicts are processed before spreading to the greater Imperium. Unlike during the Reign of Blood, this organization acts as a chamber of sober second thought to ensure the politics of Terra don't influence the church in a way they can't stymie.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Hmmm, perhaps the Synod was already in place before and Vandire disbanded it as part of his grab for power. Afterwards, Sebastian Thor reformed the Synod with the express purpose of preventing it happening again.

Which is illogical.

If Vandire disbanded/purged it, then Thor reformed it, what prevents the next powermonger from doing the same as Vandire?

Fictional wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Hmmm, perhaps the Synod was already in place before and Vandire disbanded it as part of his grab for power. Afterwards, Sebastian Thor reformed the Synod with the express purpose of preventing it happening again.

Which is illogical.

If Vandire disbanded/purged it, then Thor reformed it, what prevents the next powermonger from doing the same as Vandire?

'reformed with the express purpose of preventing it happening again'.

Implying reforming it under the same mantle, but with new powers/aims/responsibilities to actively prevent any single despot gaining power. Something as simple as 'oh, by the way, you guys now have right of veto over whether the incumbent disbands any particular organisation within the Ecclessiarchy, and the right to muster military forces to enforce that veto'.

Job done. Same Synod. Slightly different powers.

You wouldn't even need to go that far really. All he really needed to say was 'alright new Synod. It's now part of your job to stop this happening again.'

That's such a minor piece of fluff that there's no reason to expect GW to keep it straight.

I mean, they can't even keep the size of Space Marines consistent (and that's a piece of fluff that players interact with constantly).

Fictional wrote:Which is illogical.

If Vandire disbanded/purged it, then Thor reformed it, what prevents the next powermonger from doing the same as Vandire?

The Synod Ministra catches them doing it, commands the three orders militant based on Terra to exercise the duty of their office, and people get executed.

Whilst probably no longer canon, the "Index Imperialis : Apocrypha", page 93, says that Vandire "dissolved the Council of High Lords" and that Thor was basically compelled to become the new Ecclesiarch whereafter he formed the Synod Ministorum on Ophelia VII, page 96, to act as a counter balance to both internal and external influence.

So, that means the original information was that the Synod did not exist until after Vandire was executed and Thor did indeed create it.

The reforms of the post-Vandire Ecclesiarchy are gone into in some detail in Codex: Sisterd of Battle — basically, Thor did create a holy synod from scratch and there was already one before then; the synod created by Thor was an additional one, based on a different planet, with nominally equal status.

Please remain where you are, suspend all further personal communications with any other Imperial ctizens. A squad of Sororitas Dominions have been dispatched to help you with your questions. They will enlighten you on the reward for questions....