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Does anyone else think that GW made dark lances and dark eldar vehicles in general way to cheap? What really makes them broken for only 20 points is that they are assault weapons on vehicles. This means they are hitting on 3's against everything even if they move. They have a similar stat line to meltaguns with a 36" range. It just seems they made these things way to cheap and now I am seeing lists with 18-20 dark lances plus blaster guns in lists. Needless to say how can you possibly survive that when they get first turn?? If they made them heavy I think it would resolve most of these issues. Similar to the way multimeltas are.

Dark lances are fine - in perfect alignment on a glass cannon alpha strike speed-freak force.

There is one big difference between Eldar Lance weapons and Melta Weapons: Lances can't roll 2D6 highest for damage at half range.

Keep in mind that the majority of Dark Eldar vehicles compared unfavorably with a Rhino chassis in terms of durability.

As far as counterplay goes, remember to set up enough LOS-blocking terrain so that your opponent can't shoot all 20 Lances at you 1st turn. It also helps to bring more things will want to shoot Lance weapons so as to split their fire.

20 dark lances hitting on 3's kills multiple vehicles and guts my army. It is just stupid they are hitting on 3s, suffer no movement penalty, allow no save, and are only 20pts. To get the 2D6 melta effect requires you to within 6" which is very hard, and has a 12" range, and is the same amount of points. One of two things needs to happen

1) Dark lances are always heavy 1
-or-
2) Dark lances become at least 25pts (the same as a SM lascannon)

Right now they are broken.

broxus wrote:
20 dark lances hitting on 3's kills multiple vehicles and guts my army. It is just stupid they are hitting on 3s, suffer no movement penalty, allow no save, and are only 20pts. To get the 2D6 melta effect requires you to within 6" which is very hard, and has a 12" range, and is the same amount of points. One of two things needs to happen

1) Dark lances are always heavy 1
-or-
2) Dark lances become at least 25pts (the same as a SM lascannon)

Right now they are broken.

Sounds like your list/tactics are the problem. If 115pt T5 10W 4+/5++ models with a single dark lance is gutting your army and you have no response, the problem is you. Keep in mind as a dedicated transport every Raider needs a corresponding unit that takes a slot in your opponent's detachment(s).

Also, Lascannon is 48" S9 AP-3 DM D6; Dark Lance S8 AP-4 DM D6. Seems more than fair when you consider Dark Lances used to cause any armor above AV12 to count as AV14 (forcing your Land Raider to have armor +1AV better than a Rhino's). Vehicles are definitely more durable this edition but if you're struggling that badly against Raiders the problem almost certainly lies with your list or it's employment. A twin lascannon Razorback is only 115pts and is T7 10W 3+, after all.

And unless I missed something, they're still Heavy 1 on Raiders/Ravagers and nothing for either of them allows them to shoot Heavy weapons without penalty.

GhostRecon wrote:

broxus wrote:
20 dark lances hitting on 3's kills multiple vehicles and guts my army. It is just stupid they are hitting on 3s, suffer no movement penalty, allow no save, and are only 20pts. To get the 2D6 melta effect requires you to within 6" which is very hard, and has a 12" range, and is the same amount of points. One of two things needs to happen

1) Dark lances are always heavy 1
-or-
2) Dark lances become at least 25pts (the same as a SM lascannon)

Right now they are broken.

Sounds like your list/tactics are the problem. If 115pt T5 10W 4+/5++ models with a single dark lance is gutting your army and you have no response, the problem is you. Keep in mind as a dedicated transport every Raider needs a corresponding unit that takes a slot in your opponent's detachment(s).

Also, Lascannon is 48" S9 AP-3 DM D6; Dark Lance S8 AP-4 DM D6. Seems more than fair when you consider Dark Lances used to cause any armor above AV12 to count as AV14 (forcing your Land Raider to have armor +1AV better than a Rhino's). Vehicles are definitely more durable this edition but if you're struggling that badly against Raiders the problem almost certainly lies with your list or it's employment. A twin lascannon Razorback is only 115pts and is T7 10W 3+, after all.

And unless I missed something, they're still Heavy 1 on Raiders/Ravagers and nothing for either of them allows them to shoot Heavy weapons without penalty.

It has nothing to do with tactics. DE can simply destroy your army before you even get a turn with all of the Ravager, Venom, and Razorwing spam. These all have invul saves and most are -1 to hit. Once agains if the dark lances were 25pts (similar to lascannons) or remained heavy 1 it would resolve these problems. If you look at the win/loss rate of DE you can see they seem to be doing far better than almost any army.


Read the weapons description and you will see that if it is mounted on a vehicle it counts as an assault weapon. I don't care about its stats I just care that it is a melta like assault weapon with 36" range for only 20-points. You simply can't justify that points break. Yes Razorbacks are to cheap also! Yet if they move at least they gain a penalty.

It's only 5 points less than a lascannon, and S8 rather than 9 (which matters against a lot of vehicles). You're going to have to stack up a lot of them to reliably take out any given vehicle.

Seems fine.

What army do you play? DE are not even remotely overpowered and massive dark lances are not an efficient answer for a TAC durkhari list. Lots of poisoned shots are still needed since troops spam are quite common in 8th edition.

Furthemore dark eldar vehicles have T5 or T6, is quite easy to remove them or damage them in order to mitigate their shooting. It's also not easy for them to start first since most of their units are cheap and they would have a significant amount of drops.

Lots of DE units were nerfed in 8th edition. Now they're mid tiers at most, the AM is the only army that can obliterate you in a single turn of shooting with tons of plasma scions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

broxus wrote:



Read the weapons description and you will see that if it is mounted on a vehicle it counts as an assault weapon. I don't care about its stats I just care that it is a melta like assault weapon with 36" range for only 20-points. You simply can't justify that points break. Yes Razorbacks are to cheap also! Yet if they move at least they gain a penalty.

And DE transports are only T5 with 4+ save. Infantries are T3 with 5+ save. Pretty much every unit in the codex is extremely squishy. Dark lances are failry costed considering all the pros and cons of the drukhari index. I play DE and I wouldn't bring more than 11-12 lances and 3-4 blasters. SM and AM weapons are undercosted. I think DE vehicles should be cheaper, a raider with a single dark lance has the same cost of a razorback with twin lascannons but with a crappy T5 and 4+ save, venoms with 2 cannons at 95 points are crazy, they should be priced around 75 at most since their cannons were nerfed and they can't jink anymore, not to mention their 6W which make them the most fragile transport in the game.

Dark Eldar overpowered? Now that's amusing. We're supposed to hit hard and fast, and the Dark Lance is a prime example of that. Hit us back and we fall apart fairly easily.

Not to mention that I've already encountered armies that have/can have invulnerable saves and/or -1 to Hit modifiers on their vehicles. It takes a lot of DLs to destroy those.

"It's not fair - Dark Lances aren't complete gak anymore!"

That we even exist in a world where this thread is happening makes me so damn happy! lets all stop talking about it so they don't take our sweet, sweet guns away!

Yeah as someone who recently used a list of 6 Ravagers and 3 raiders, Dark Lances are useless.

broxus wrote:

GhostRecon wrote:

broxus wrote:
20 dark lances hitting on 3's kills multiple vehicles and guts my army. It is just stupid they are hitting on 3s, suffer no movement penalty, allow no save, and are only 20pts. To get the 2D6 melta effect requires you to within 6" which is very hard, and has a 12" range, and is the same amount of points. One of two things needs to happen

1) Dark lances are always heavy 1
-or-
2) Dark lances become at least 25pts (the same as a SM lascannon)

Right now they are broken.

Sounds like your list/tactics are the problem. If 115pt T5 10W 4+/5++ models with a single dark lance is gutting your army and you have no response, the problem is you. Keep in mind as a dedicated transport every Raider needs a corresponding unit that takes a slot in your opponent's detachment(s).

Also, Lascannon is 48" S9 AP-3 DM D6; Dark Lance S8 AP-4 DM D6. Seems more than fair when you consider Dark Lances used to cause any armor above AV12 to count as AV14 (forcing your Land Raider to have armor +1AV better than a Rhino's). Vehicles are definitely more durable this edition but if you're struggling that badly against Raiders the problem almost certainly lies with your list or it's employment. A twin lascannon Razorback is only 115pts and is T7 10W 3+, after all.

And unless I missed something, they're still Heavy 1 on Raiders/Ravagers and nothing for either of them allows them to shoot Heavy weapons without penalty.

It has nothing to do with tactics. DE can simply destroy your army before you even get a turn with all of the Ravager, Venom, and Razorwing spam. These all have invul saves and most are -1 to hit. Once agains if the dark lances were 25pts (similar to lascannons) or remained heavy 1 it would resolve these problems. If you look at the win/loss rate of DE you can see they seem to be doing far better than almost any army.


Read the weapons description and you will see that if it is mounted on a vehicle it counts as an assault weapon. I don't care about its stats I just care that it is a melta like assault weapon with 36" range for only 20-points. You simply can't justify that points break. Yes Razorbacks are to cheap also! Yet if they move at least they gain a penalty.

The problem is absolutley your tactics. DE are a fast moving glass cannon army, but it's also very easy for other armies to out range us at least in part. If you're struggling to remove more than 1 or 2 vehicles per turn then you are doing it wrong.

And stop comparing the Dark Lance to a melta, it isn't one. We have a melta gun, it's called the Heat Lance, it has 18" range but at only S6 and 25pts it's completely worthless. The Dark Lance is more comparible to the Lascannon which has an extra 12" range and extra point of strength.

broxus wrote:

GhostRecon wrote:

broxus wrote:
20 dark lances hitting on 3's kills multiple vehicles and guts my army. It is just stupid they are hitting on 3s, suffer no movement penalty, allow no save, and are only 20pts. To get the 2D6 melta effect requires you to within 6" which is very hard, and has a 12" range, and is the same amount of points. One of two things needs to happen

1) Dark lances are always heavy 1
-or-
2) Dark lances become at least 25pts (the same as a SM lascannon)

Right now they are broken.

Sounds like your list/tactics are the problem. If 115pt T5 10W 4+/5++ models with a single dark lance is gutting your army and you have no response, the problem is you. Keep in mind as a dedicated transport every Raider needs a corresponding unit that takes a slot in your opponent's detachment(s).

Also, Lascannon is 48" S9 AP-3 DM D6; Dark Lance S8 AP-4 DM D6. Seems more than fair when you consider Dark Lances used to cause any armor above AV12 to count as AV14 (forcing your Land Raider to have armor +1AV better than a Rhino's). Vehicles are definitely more durable this edition but if you're struggling that badly against Raiders the problem almost certainly lies with your list or it's employment. A twin lascannon Razorback is only 115pts and is T7 10W 3+, after all.

And unless I missed something, they're still Heavy 1 on Raiders/Ravagers and nothing for either of them allows them to shoot Heavy weapons without penalty.

It has nothing to do with tactics. DE can simply destroy your army before you even get a turn with all of the Ravager, Venom, and Razorwing spam. These all have invul saves and most are -1 to hit. Once agains if the dark lances were 25pts (similar to lascannons) or remained heavy 1 it would resolve these problems. If you look at the win/loss rate of DE you can see they seem to be doing far better than almost any army.


Read the weapons description and you will see that if it is mounted on a vehicle it counts as an assault weapon. I don't care about its stats I just care that it is a melta like assault weapon with 36" range for only 20-points. You simply can't justify that points break. Yes Razorbacks are to cheap also! Yet if they move at least they gain a penalty.

If you think dark lances are OP, God forbid you ever play against plasma scion spam.

broxus wrote:
20 dark lances hitting on 3's kills multiple vehicles and guts my army. It is just stupid they are hitting on 3s, suffer no movement penalty, allow no save, and are only 20pts. To get the 2D6 melta effect requires you to within 6" which is very hard, and has a 12" range, and is the same amount of points. One of two things needs to happen

1) Dark lances are always heavy 1
-or-
2) Dark lances become at least 25pts (the same as a SM lascannon)

Right now they are broken.

You're just complaining about list tailoring. Yeah, if you're reliant on vehicles this will wreck you, but a list with 20 dark lances has very little ability to kill single-wound models. It will lose horribly to an infantry-based list.

Ultimately DE are getting a single dark lance on a 115 point T5 W10 4+/5++ vehicle or 3 on a 155 point T6 W10 4+/5++ vehicle. A Razorback gets a twin lascannon for the same price as a Raider. The lances need to be assault because they have shorter range and the Raider needs to be moving in to deliver its cargo.

broxus wrote:
Does anyone else think that GW made dark lances and dark eldar vehicles in general way to cheap? What really makes them broken for only 20 points is that they are assault weapons on vehicles. This means they are hitting on 3's against everything even if they move. They have a similar stat line to meltaguns with a 36" range. It just seems they made these things way to cheap and now I am seeing lists with 18-20 dark lances plus blaster guns in lists. Needless to say how can you possibly survive that when they get first turn?? If they made them heavy I think it would resolve most of these issues. Similar to the way multimeltas are.

This isn't an issue with the lance, dark eldar, or you.

Right now 8th edition is built around the idea that one of the players will remove all of the other players models by turn 3. The only way to accomplish this goal from a design point is to raise the damage potential so high that players start removing massive parts of thier opponents army turn 1.

Welcome to the new reality. Adjust accordingly.

Pancakey wrote:

broxus wrote:
Does anyone else think that GW made dark lances and dark eldar vehicles in general way to cheap? What really makes them broken for only 20 points is that they are assault weapons on vehicles. This means they are hitting on 3's against everything even if they move. They have a similar stat line to meltaguns with a 36" range. It just seems they made these things way to cheap and now I am seeing lists with 18-20 dark lances plus blaster guns in lists. Needless to say how can you possibly survive that when they get first turn?? If they made them heavy I think it would resolve most of these issues. Similar to the way multimeltas are.

This isn't an issue with the lance, dark eldar, or you.

Right now 8th edition is built around the idea that one of the players will remove all of the other players models by turn 3. The only way to accomplish this goal from a design point is to raise the damage potential so high that players start removing massive parts of thier opponents army turn 1.

Welcome to the new reality. Adjust accordingly.

IMHO it's the opposite. In 7th edition the most overpowered armies could obliterate anything in 3 turns, most of the times screwing games in turn 1. 8th edition is way more balanced, even against the most overpowered lists it's unlikely to get tabled by turn 3. Some of the most broken armies like AM also have got a significant amount of drops which means you can easily go first and that's a huge advantage like in the previous edition. DE also have several drops since their units are not particularly expensive.

if you get tabled by a DE army by turn 3 there's something (very) wrong in your list, not in the game edition or the lances.

It might help if you gave us an idea of your full list and your opponent's full list.

Pancakey is on target. Gw's idea of bringing new players in involves (but isn't completely based upon) shortening the game. A game in which players lose significant amounts of models on turn 1 is a shorter game and therefore more appealing to new players (although I am not really on the tabled by turn 3 side. That seems a bit harder for my armies both directions) . Getting two or three games in a three to four hour span is the new goal. This is an attempt to compete with the hordes of video game competition. Those who enjoy modeling, painting etc will always give 40k a try. Those who don't, want to be able to play games at speed, over and over. (For a comparison of a game that completely blew up for combining complexity and speed of play: see Magic: The Gathering)
This means far more powerful weapons and first turn charges with half your army. This is simply a part of the new style, and people can and will make similar complaints about units/weapons from every codex. The real strategy in 40k is no longer movement or tactics on the table (I really can't remember when it was, since Alpha Strike has been the game for a long time), but army building. This does NOT mean those who use tactics and strategy do not win more often, they do (pay particular attention to placement, as that really changes the game).
So, adapt, change, surprise him. Make him waste his firepower in the alpha strike on undesirable models. Show up with a horde with heavy weapons, and see how long before he changes his build.

broxus wrote:

GhostRecon wrote:

broxus wrote:
20 dark lances hitting on 3's kills multiple vehicles and guts my army. It is just stupid they are hitting on 3s, suffer no movement penalty, allow no save, and are only 20pts. To get the 2D6 melta effect requires you to within 6" which is very hard, and has a 12" range, and is the same amount of points. One of two things needs to happen

1) Dark lances are always heavy 1
-or-
2) Dark lances become at least 25pts (the same as a SM lascannon)

Right now they are broken.

Sounds like your list/tactics are the problem. If 115pt T5 10W 4+/5++ models with a single dark lance is gutting your army and you have no response, the problem is you. Keep in mind as a dedicated transport every Raider needs a corresponding unit that takes a slot in your opponent's detachment(s).

Also, Lascannon is 48" S9 AP-3 DM D6; Dark Lance S8 AP-4 DM D6. Seems more than fair when you consider Dark Lances used to cause any armor above AV12 to count as AV14 (forcing your Land Raider to have armor +1AV better than a Rhino's). Vehicles are definitely more durable this edition but if you're struggling that badly against Raiders the problem almost certainly lies with your list or it's employment. A twin lascannon Razorback is only 115pts and is T7 10W 3+, after all.

And unless I missed something, they're still Heavy 1 on Raiders/Ravagers and nothing for either of them allows them to shoot Heavy weapons without penalty.

It has nothing to do with tactics. DE can simply destroy your army before you even get a turn with all of the Ravager, Venom, and Razorwing spam. These all have invul saves and most are -1 to hit. Once agains if the dark lances were 25pts (similar to lascannons) or remained heavy 1 it would resolve these problems. If you look at the win/loss rate of DE you can see they seem to be doing far better than almost any army.


Read the weapons description and you will see that if it is mounted on a vehicle it counts as an assault weapon. I don't care about its stats I just care that it is a melta like assault weapon with 36" range for only 20-points. You simply can't justify that points break. Yes Razorbacks are to cheap also! Yet if they move at least they gain a penalty.

So, definitely don't purchase the 'Enhanced Edition' of the Indices - this is the third or fourth instance where a rule isn't mentioned in the enhanced one. (Seriously, nowhere in it did it mention that Dark Lances get assault on vehicles).

Regardless, you should post your lists or bat reps to try and prove your point - because at the moment it sounds as if you are either the victim of list tailoring... or have a horribly cobbled together or employed list.

I have played multiple lists against it. Namely a heavily mechanized Astra Militarum list and a Blood Angels. I guess the only way to beat dark lance spam is to play mass conscripts and/or scions. It is sad i feel forced to do that. Those DLs and other blasters are doing around 30+ wounds to my vehicles the first turn. That is generally enough to destroy 1/4 to 1/3 of my army before I even get to shoot back.

broxus wrote:
20 dark lances hitting on 3's kills multiple vehicles and guts my army. It is just stupid they are hitting on 3s, suffer no movement penalty, allow no save, and are only 20pts. To get the 2D6 melta effect requires you to within 6" which is very hard, and has a 12" range, and is the same amount of points. One of two things needs to happen

1) Dark lances are always heavy 1
-or-
2) Dark lances become at least 25pts (the same as a SM lascannon)

Right now they are broken.

So he's taking 20 dark lances. You want that to cost 100 points more which will probably result in him taking 19 or 17.

This fixes the problem for you?
.
Assuming he gets to fire all 20 at whatever he wants this is 18 to 26 wounds so two dead russes. Quite unlikely to be three dead.

I think you should focus on blasters. Now those are nuts. Taking into consideration that half an army can take them.

 koooaei wrote:
I think you should focus on blasters. Now those are nuts. Taking into consideration that half an army can take them.

Do you think so?

They're basically metlas with +6" of range but only do d3 damage and don't get a reroll in half-range.

broxus wrote:
I have played multiple lists against it. Namely a heavily mechanized Astra Militarum list and a Blood Angels. I guess the only way to beat dark lance spam is to play mass conscripts and/or scions. It is sad i feel forced to do that. Those DLs and other blasters are doing around 30+ wounds to my vehicles the first turn. That is generally enough to destroy 1/4 to 1/3 of my army before I even get to shoot back.

You can't run a tank army into a list full of AT weapons and expect to win. That is the price you pay for only taking vehicles or any rock paper scissor spam list, if the shoe was on the other foot and he only brought poison weapons should he then he complain he can't beat your AM list?

It's matter of your tactics here , you can't expect to beat every list out there and even less so if your are not willing to compromise your list. You have the tools to beat it, use them.

What kind of blood angels list did you run? I'm no BA player but jump packs should catch those DA boats which they dark lances are ineffective against unless he trades them all out for disintregrator cannons which then is a case of list tailoring which you counter by creating a balanced list against. Big devastator marines squads with lascannons will also do well in this matchup.

CovenantGuardian wrote:

broxus wrote:
I have played multiple lists against it. Namely a heavily mechanized Astra Militarum list and a Blood Angels. I guess the only way to beat dark lance spam is to play mass conscripts and/or scions. It is sad i feel forced to do that. Those DLs and other blasters are doing around 30+ wounds to my vehicles the first turn. That is generally enough to destroy 1/4 to 1/3 of my army before I even get to shoot back.

You can't run a tank army into a list full of AT weapons and expect to win. That is the price you pay for only taking vehicles or any rock paper scissor spam list, if the shoe was on the other foot and he only brought poison weapons should he then he complain he can't beat your AM list?

It's matter of your tactics here , you can't expect to beat every list out there and even less so if your are not willing to compromise your list. You have the tools to beat it, use them.

What kind of blood angels list did you run? I'm no BA player but jump packs should catch those DA boats which they dark lances are ineffective against unless he trades them all out for disintregrator cannons which then is a case of list tailoring which you counter by creating a balanced list against. Big devastator marines squads with lascannons will also do well in this matchup.

Would also want to see his AM list, as well as his opponent's list. To get 20 dark Lances + some unknown extra number of blasters (by his anecdotes) makes me wonder what his opponent is actually fielding too.

As a Dark Eldar player I do think that Dark Lances are very, very good. A Dark Lance is comparable to a Las-cannon in many ways, with Str 9 being opposed by Ap -4 (3+ Sv's get a 6+ sv Las-cannons, non vs DL) and 48'' being opposed by being assault on our fast vehicles.

The difference being that Dark Lances are quite easy to get a lot into a list with. 5 Scourges with 4 Lances is 130pts. A Ravager with 3 and vastly more durability vs small arms fire is 155. In 2000pt games I've taken 3 of each in the relevent 3+HQ detachment for less than 1000pts. 21 Dark Lances, 9 of which hit on 3's 12 of which are 4's half the time 3's the other half will put a lot of holes in whatever I aimed them at, all at 36'' away and with the capability to dance back 10+ inches and still shoot effectively. Not to mention Scourges are reasonably durable deepstriking into cover for a 3+/6++ while the ravager rocks 10 wounds and a 5+ invul.

Not saying that there is anything wrong with this, I'm sure Marines could spam this many Las-cannons in Devastator squads or Predators if they so desired. But lets not pretend they aren't good, or that our units that carry them aren't cost effective, or that 21 Dark Lances will commonly come against a list in which they'll be wasted (everything has something worth blasting). All I am suggesting is that DE can and should have a lot of Lances in their list unless they are going for a gimmick.

Yeah I'd like to point out most armies can do something compareable. A razorback with lascannon at 90 points vs 115 for raider with dark lance is fairly compareable even when the razorback moves. On a T 7 vehicles with 4+ armor, the raider averages 1.94 wounds vs 1.46. So 78% of the cost for 75% of the damage even when the razorback is moving.

So the issue isn't the dark lance itself. It could be the open topped nature of the raider is very powerful or it could just be a symptom of alpha strikes being really powerful. Hard to say. But probably not the dark lance itself.

One thing to remember, Dark Eldar have all of 2 effective weapon types, Splinter (wounds on a 4+, 6+ against vehicles, no AP, D1) and Dark Light (S8, AP-4, D D3/6). We can take a few Disintegrators for S5, AP-3 D2 but they are expensive and only 2 units have them.

Other than that what do DE have? A S3 flamer, a S6 Melta, Haywire (which is useless this edition for every army) and the horribly short range, low RoF Shredder.

Considering how few tools we have in out box, it's a damn good thing that at least one of them is good at it's job.

broxus wrote:
I have played multiple lists against it. Namely a heavily mechanized Astra Militarum list and a Blood Angels. I guess the only way to beat dark lance spam is to play mass conscripts and/or scions. It is sad i feel forced to do that. Those DLs and other blasters are doing around 30+ wounds to my vehicles the first turn. That is generally enough to destroy 1/4 to 1/3 of my army before I even get to shoot back.

Taking a bunch of vehicles vs an army using a bunch of anti tank weapons then complaining about them being strong?
Want to know how to beat dark lance spam? Shoot them back, dont make 100% of your list armour or get ready to be countered. DL's just do their job moderately well.