Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello

I am confused about how distance measurement works in 8th edition. Mainly about vertical distance, but perhaps diagonal as well. There is a question in the "Stepping into a new edition of Warhammer 40,000" that is supposed to clarify this, but I don't think that the answer is precise enough. As far as I know, the relevant rules texts are the following:

Core rules:
"Moving
A model can be moved in any direction, to a distance, in inches, equal to or less than the Move characteristic on its datasheet. No part of the model’s base (or hull) can move further than this. It cannot be moved through other models or through terrain features such as walls, but can be moved vertically in order to climb or traverse any scenery. If the datasheet for a model says it can Fly, it can move across models and terrain as if they were not there."

Stepping into a new edition of Warhammer 40,000:
"Q: How do vertical distances work for movement and measurements?
A: All distances are measured in three dimensions, so if a unit moves over a hill or scales a wall, the horizontal distance and vertical distance combined cannot exceed its Movement characteristic. This means that in order to traverse across an obstacle, you must move up to the top of that obstacle, move across the top of it, then move down it."

I'd like to know what the distance is between the start and finish points in the example pictures below.

Is the distance between the starting point A and finish point B 5" or 7" for regular movement in the first example? What about the second example? Do any of these answers change if we are talking about shooting or a fly move? If so, why?

You would move along the surface of the table/terrain, just like any other situation (like moving around a block of impassible terrain or enemy models). You can't just measure from start point to end point if that isn't the path your model can take. In the first case the required distance would be 7", as the imaginary vertical line does not follow the terrain. To get to the top the model would have to move up to the base of the wall, then move up to the top, a total of 7". In the second case the required distance would be 5", as the surface goes straight from point A to point B.

Of course a model with the Fly rule would use the 5" path in both cases, as it goes from start point to end point without considering the terrain between.

A flying model only has 4" to move in both examples because "it can move across models and terrain as if they were not there." The tower and the hill would be treated as a flat surface.

p5freak wrote:
A flying model only has 4" to move in both examples because "it can move across models and terrain as if they were not there." The tower and the hill would be treated as a flat surface.

"Move as if they were not there" is not the same as "count the distance moved as being shorter". In both cases the model ends 5" from its starting position, treating the terrain as a flat surface between the start point and the end point doesn't change this fact.

There is no need to move diagonally if the terrain is not there. I move my flying unit horizontally, and the distance is 4" in both examples.

I think it is a bit unclear exactly what the sentence about fliers means. If a flier moves to a position 10" away, on the other side of some terrain piece, it is clear enough. On the other hand, I don't think the situation with the tower is that clear. Does moving onto terrain count as moving across it? What "as if they were not there" seems to be a bit unclear as well.

Now remember that the q&a is just dealing with movement(I had recently seen a question about shooting range that tried to use the above to claim the range for the shot was 7"(instead if the 5" it really is)

That said, and another thread where I have been arguing about Rules applied rigidly breaking everything: I have decided to embrace and champion the Designer's notes; use common sense and apply the rules in a functional manner.

Models with FLY ignore terrain that they pass over. Models with fly should not have to walk to the base of a tall piece of terrain and then "climb up". As they could "pass over" without penalty. I would say not to use WMS unless it is the tail end of a unit that can mostly fit but not stable.

So walking models =A+B, models with fly and ranged attacks =hypotenuse.

One tiny nitpick of the diagrams, something I got called on in a recent game for inadvertently doing:

If it's 4" front of base to the wall and 3" up it (first diagram) you also need to move forward 1"/part of an inch to actually make it onto the terrain! You'd need an 8" move to go forward to the wall, up it, then onto the top.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


So walking models =A+B, models with fly and ranged attacks =hypotenuse.

How do you know where the flying unit actually is ? If its infantry, they could walk on the ground, or they could hover in mid air. If they are on the ground, then its 5", if they are in mid air its 4". There is no way to determine their true position. And because of that the rules say that they move as if the terrain is not there.

p5freak wrote:
There is no need to move diagonally if the terrain is not there. I move my flying unit horizontally, and the distance is 4" in both examples.

Of course there is a need to move diagonally, because the ending point in both situations is diagonally above the starting point. A move of 4" puts you at the base of the tower or inside the hill, not at the top. And Fly does not let you move the model to an arbitrary point inside the table.

 Peregrine wrote:


Of course there is a need to move diagonally, because the ending point in both situations is diagonally above the starting point.

How do you know that the starting point from a flying model is not in mid air, at the same height level as the tower ? Where is it exactly ?? On the ground ? 1" above ground ? 2" above ground ? 120" above ground ? As i said, there is no way to determine the actual position, height wise, of the flying model.

For flying models we've been treating the board as a 2D plane, essentially (ie only count XY distance, Z movement is free). Otherwise moving over a tower costs less movement than going to the top of one, which seems odd. Clearly not the only possible interpretation of the rules, but seems to work for us.

p5freak wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


So walking models =A+B, models with fly and ranged attacks =hypotenuse.

How do you know where the flying unit actually is ? If its infantry, they could walk on the ground, or they could hover in mid air. If they are on the ground, then its 5", if they are in mid air its 4". There is no way to determine their true position. And because of that the rules say that they move as if the terrain is not there.

What are you on about? The base is on the table or the terrain.

And the rules are moving across models and terrain not onto them. The model(lets use assault marines with jump packs as an example) can move over the terrain in a straight 12" from the starting point to the ending point. It does not say to ignore terrain you move onto.

So, if we throw logic and sense out of the window, and apply RAW, assault marines with jump packs also have to move 7" in example 1. Because, RAW, says you have to combine vertical and horizontal distance. Terrain and models only count as not being there for flying units when they move across it, not onto it. RAW does not say anything about diagonal movement.
A flyer with 20" movement couldnt fly on top of a ruin, if the ruin is 16" far away and its height is 8". Because RAW, you have to add horizontal and vertical movement, which is 24", more than its movement value. But he could move 20" across it, because then the ruin is not there. Just because the base is on the ground, you have to count from the ground ? Makes no sense.