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Finally got round to picking up the new Space Marine Codex, and I fancy a chat about what it promises for the future.

Now we will of course be speculating, but please no 'bet theirs will be better than mine' stuff. This isn't a thread for such complaints.

Instead, I want to focus on how some Stratagems effectively replicate some of the less hatstand formations of 7th Edition. A good one to start with is of course Linebreaker Bombardment.

It's 1 CP to use, and requires no less than three Vindicators to be taken in your army. In theory, this is a stratagem one can use each and every turn. For my money, it's really quite good. The chance to dish out Mortal Wounds across multiple units has a terrific appeal. And I like how it's use pretty much dictates a slice of your army.

Three Vindicators gobble up three slots, and of course 21 Power or 405 regular points. That alone I feel brings a kind of balance - especially as unless you're playing a really big game, you're sacrificing the option of other Stratagems, and will want to ensure your army has a decent supply of Command Points to spend on buttering the enemy up the board.

It's also relatively easy for your opponent to counter. Take out just one of the three required Vindicators, and the Stratagem can't be used. So with the base 'cost of entry' and perhaps a fourth Vindicator to keep your options wide open, it feels quite nicely balanced - a powerful ability, but far from one to be used as an afterthought the way Formations once were.

And there's a fair few with a 'cost of entry' broadly similar in intent. Killshot requires three Predators. Datalink Telemetry demands a Whirlwind and a Land Speeder. Others come with additional requirements, and only apply to specific units. So if someone wants to make use of them, it's something to be worked in when you're writing your list. Which I'm quite fond of.

If other Codecies follow suit, they're looking like fun building blocks for most players. And for those who enjoy competitive play, another string for their bow during the number crunching. I've no doubt that sooner or later particularly potent combos and lists will be found, they always are. But given they're not simple freebies, I'm looking forward to seeing more.

Of course, YMMV and rightfully so. Why not join in and give us your penny's worth?

I like them. None of them seem particularly broken (except maybe the Raven Guard one if you truly can use it more than once before the game), add some flavor to the game, and like you said can reward you for taking certain units.

My issue so far has been remembering to use them...but I will get better at that I am sure.

Things like orbital bombardment, only in death does duty end, auspex scan, and honour the chapter can all be very very strong when used at the right times.

Yup, definitely.

Though I've found spending them so far to be a kind of brinksmanship. Because we can only activate a single stratagem per phase, I'm always second guessing 'is that re-roll or ability really essential right now, or should I hang on to it?'

Which of course is another balancing factor. You can have two or three shoots ones, but which to us that turn?

more canned strategy. Not that exciting.

Canned strategy still adds more depth than what 40K has had for a while. I mean, list building has been (and still is) more important than most choices you make in game, but this at least helps even it out a bit.

I'm most excited to see some formation type benefits in a less annoying format. The predator/vindicator thing for example.

What's the definition of 'canned strategy!? It's not a term I've come across before?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yup, definitely.

Though I've found spending them so far to be a kind of brinksmanship. Because we can only activate a single stratagem per phase, I'm always second guessing 'is that re-roll or ability really essential right now, or should I hang on to it?'

Which of course is another balancing factor. You can have two or three shoots ones, but which to us that turn?

That is not how the rules work. You can only use one of any given stratagems per phase, but you may use as many different stratagems as you like. So go nuts and use six stratagems in a phase, so long as you don't use the same one twice.

I think that it's best to frontload with CP and spend them early to kill the bad guys so there are fewer bad guys around to kill you later in the game. Of course, if you have an especially essential element to your plans (like a unit that you must keep alive, or a psychic power that must go off) then you should hoard your CP to enhance that element.

Stratagems also give you more bang for your buck if you have larger units to enhance. 10 Sternguard will get more out of the Sternguard stratagem than 5, and a healthy Predator will get more out of Killshot than one limping along with 1 wound left. So if a given stratagem is part of you plan you should include a big unit to take advantage of it, and perhaps take something like a Techmarine or an Apothecary to keep that unit humming along at full efficiency.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
What's the definition of 'canned strategy!? It's not a term I've come across before?

A negative term. It's used by people that view 8th as lacking in tactical depth and thus requiring a band aid to fix it.

Basically it's bs.

Oh. Fair enough.

"Honour the Chapter" (3cp) strikes me as one I plan to use many time, although it's expensive. You use it at the end of the fight phase and it allows one unit to fight a second time.

I can easily imagine - say - a dreadnought or some powerfist terminators doing a bunch of wounds to a critical enemy heavy unit but not quite finishing it off. Getting to do all those attacks a 2nd time could finish it off.

You'd definitely want to use it in a situation where killing that unit swings the outcome of the battle.

Although it doesn't have to be against a high value unit... perhaps it just gets you out of a tarpit.

For example in my last game, I had a unit of 5 terminators in melee against a blob of Necron Warriors. Every battle round, the terminators would kill 4-8 Necrons and lose 0-1 wound in return. Reanimation protocols would then bring a bunch of the Necrons back. I got them down to 4 models and then they sprang back up to 10 again... the combat just went on all game.

Using 3cp to finish off that unit would have freed up the terminators to go and do other things - so in that case it may well have been worth it.

I like how Orbital Bombardment basically involves rolling a bazillion dice...

more randomness, yay.

zerosignal wrote:
I like how Orbital Bombardment basically involves rolling a bazillion dice...

more randomness, yay.

I don't mind randomness in a game entirely controlled by dice...

But yes, for 3 CP, Orbital Bombardment seems too unreliable for regular use. It should either be fixed radius or auto hit... not both.

Perhaps 3" or 4" radius and you roll to hit, or
d6" radius and it autohits anything within that.

Spending 3 cp and getting a 1" radius then only a 50:50 chance at best of doing anything to the unit in that radius seems a bit ridiculous!

For 3cp it's far too high a chance of doing nothing. I'd rather save those CP's to reroll lascannon damage.

Random is the antithesis of skill, more random the game less your choice matters.

Well, if the codices dont promise more CP at hand for an army, then it will be fine. In a 2000 pt army, you get 7 CP or so in toto. Then you can take two bigger strategems (3+3) or three medium strategems (2+2+2).

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, if the codices dont promise more CP at hand for an army, then it will be fine. In a 2000 pt army, you get 7 CP or so in toto. Then you can take two bigger strategems (3+3) or three medium strategems (2+2+2).

Some characters just randomly seem to give 2CP, which sort of seems to go entirely against the balancing mechanism of CP such as it is designed.

 Purifier wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, if the codices dont promise more CP at hand for an army, then it will be fine. In a 2000 pt army, you get 7 CP or so in toto. Then you can take two bigger strategems (3+3) or three medium strategems (2+2+2).

Some characters just randomly seem to give 2CP, which sort of seems to go entirely against the balancing mechanism of CP such as it is designed.

It wouldn't if, like Zhandrekh or Creed, you were specifically paying your points for a "Strategic" character, i.e. not combat capable.

But then, like pretty much everything in the game, it's ruined by Maryboute Sueliman who hath to be the betht at everything becauth heth a primarch, tho he geth thrategy pointh too!

It's starting to become rather hard to take people seriously after reading posts like that.

In general it seems the only characters that'll be giving CP are the biggest leaders. Abbadon and Guilliman are the first.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
It's starting to become rather hard to take people seriously after reading posts like that.

In general it seems the only characters that'll be giving CP are the biggest leaders. Abbadon and Guilliman are the first.

"Only" is a relative term when it's on a character that is already an auto-include. Guilliman is in every other SM list. It's not like he's some huge point sink that that is rarely seen in game because it has troubles making up its points.

 Purifier wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
It's starting to become rather hard to take people seriously after reading posts like that.

In general it seems the only characters that'll be giving CP are the biggest leaders. Abbadon and Guilliman are the first.

"Only" is a relative term when it's on a character that is already an auto-include. Guilliman is in every other SM list. It's not like he's some huge point sink that that is rarely seen in game because it has troubles making up its points.

Guilliman is more the exception then the rule though, because he's busted in general - even if he didn't give command points he'd still be broken.

In terms of Characters adding Command Points, I consider that less their own tactical genius, and more that typically, they'll be leading the absolute cream of the crop - Veteran's veterans who are ridiculously competent at what they do.