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Just something I have noticed. Whenever I go second I end up losing. Whenever I go first I end up winning. It just seems getting that first round of shooting in is enough to put the player going second in the red, never to recover. Having a decent portion of your army shot off the table without getting a chance to do any damage in return seems like too much to make up.

Anyone else finding this?

IGOUGO in a nutshell. Only way to fix it is to remove IGOUGO. I would love to see a system where each player alternated swapping units to finish all their actions, but that has it's own set of problems (less Fighting, MSU Spam becoming Advantageous, Characters being unique units etc)

I've actually won all of my games where i've beed seized on

That's not been my experience. You should know whether you're going first or second before a model is placed. Set up accordingly. My guess would be you're not using enough terrain.

1st turn shooting is useful but it depends on your deployment and your opponent's. If you expect to go second (and you should know in advance) then you can deploy accordingly. Put your units in cover or out of LOS to blunt your opponent's first turn of shooting.

If you deploy for optimal Turn 1 shooting and advancing but do not get to move and shoot first, it will probably sting so deploy accordingly.

Yeah getting seized on sucks. Not fun at all. Lists need to be built/deployed with the mentality of limiting 1st turn damage opposed to 1st turn damage

 BaconCatBug wrote:
IGOUGO in a nutshell. Only way to fix it is to remove IGOUGO. I would love to see a system where each player alternated swapping units to finish all their actions, but that has it's own set of problems (less Fighting, MSU Spam becoming Advantageous, Characters being unique units etc)

The best way to combat MSU spam is to use some things from 30k costing. Namely cost efficiency.

First additional models in a unit come at a discount. If Tyranid warriors cost 30 points each for 90 points base unit of 3. Then each additional model costs 22. Upgrades that the entire unit take have a flat cost equal to the cost of the base unit taking it. I.E. If toxin sacs are 2 ppm then the warriors could purchase the upgrade for 6 points regardless of how many models are in the unit. Essentially each additional model is getting it for free.

Yes. You can spam MSU. But the player who builds up his units will have a cost efficiency that will allow them to place more on the table than the person who does and that will be it's own advantage.

 scommy wrote:
Just something I have noticed. Whenever I go second I end up losing. Whenever I go first I end up winning. It just seems getting that first round of shooting in is enough to put the player going second in the red, never to recover. Having a decent portion of your army shot off the table without getting a chance to do any damage in return seems like too much to make up.

Anyone else finding this?

You should know you're going first or second when you count up your opponent's units (or, in the case of some of the missions, like FoK, when you read the mission). Everything should be set up with the idea that you want to avoid the turn 1 firepower. In my latest game, I had two decent sized buildings near the edge of my deployment zone, and I was able to fit nearly every unit that I cared about in cover. I lost 3 wraithguard and 1 clawed fiend to a whole Guard army, and that required him to expose a few units like sentinels and hellhounds to getting charged on my first turn.

As a side note, if you're getting annoyed with pure gunline tactics, try out the new "Open Play" missions from the card deck. They have several of the twists that help elongate the game by reducing the turn 1 fire volley from either side, and they have a great variety of missions that are all fairly balanced and fun. I've been having a great time playing with them in normal games.

I was gona go first
Than a sudden six rolls
So i pack up my dudes
Hear out my sad blues

Ooooohhh i got siezed
I'll wait till 9-th is released
Oooooooooooh no
It's still i go you go

It depends if you have good terrain that blocks LOS, and you deploy to go second, all the time. You should be able to whether most shooting for a turn before striking back.

Going second can be an advantage in maelstrom, no?

zerosignal wrote:
Going second can be an advantage in maelstrom, no?

Indeed, it can.
The board should have enough terrain, say 25%, to grant cover for your units.
If you go 2nd, set up your units more conservatively using cover as much as possible.

Great points people thanks. I often play foot guard and with a horde its hard to put everyone in cover.

I played CSM yesterday went 2nd and hid everything in cover even abaddon was cowering behind a wall. The funny thing was the other guy had an ignore cover bonus so I still got hammered. However I managed to sneak in a win this time so all good!

 Crimson Devil wrote:
That's not been my experience. You should know whether you're going first or second before a model is placed. Set up accordingly. My guess would be you're not using enough terrain.

This in a nutshell.

You yourself decide in advance if you're highly likely to go first or highly likely to go second depending on how you construct your army list. You know already, before you even see your opponent, how many drops your army list has. That tells you how likely you are to get first turn, and THAT, then, tells you how to deploy your army.

And a 72"x48" table needs at least EIGHT PIECES of 4"x12" LOS blocking terrain.

zerosignal wrote:
Going second can be an advantage in maelstrom, no?

I think you mean Eternal War missions, where going second gives you the chance to steal the objectives on the last turn. Since all victory points are added up at the end of the game, not as it goes on.

Although not great for Kill Points...

 koooaei wrote:
I was gona go first
Than a sudden six rolls
So i pack up my dudes
Hear out my sad blues

Ooooohhh i got siezed
I'll wait till 9-th is released
Oooooooooooh no
It's still i go you go

My last game i went second and i won.

Im always going to go second because i run a butt load of characters from dark impeirum :/

I was gona go first
Than a sudden six rolls
So i pack up my dudes
Hear out my sad blues

Ooooohhh i got siezed
I'll wait till 9-th is released
Oooooooooooh no
It's still i go you go

We absolutely need more poem-esque responses on dakka

 BaconCatBug wrote:
IGOUGO in a nutshell. Only way to fix it is to remove IGOUGO.

It is certainly not the only way of getting rid of first turn advantage (which is not even an advantage in some matchups).

pismakron wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
IGOUGO in a nutshell. Only way to fix it is to remove IGOUGO.

It is certainly not the only way of getting rid of first turn advantage (which is not even an advantage in some matchups).

Not to mention that alternating activation still has first turn advantage.(Taking BaconCatBug's word on tactics is a lot like asking a dolphin to help you pick out shoes.)


To the OP, 3 possibilities. 1. You're not using enough LOS terrain. That's the big one. 2. You're playing a list that is weaker than what the enemy is packing. 3. Your deployment is bad.

 Ratius wrote:

I was gona go first
Than a sudden six rolls
So i pack up my dudes
Hear out my sad blues

Ooooohhh i got siezed
I'll wait till 9-th is released
Oooooooooooh no
It's still i go you go

We absolutely need more poem-esque responses on dakka

A 40k Haiku:

Tactically deploying.
My models will slay him first.
He rolls. Fething six.

A 40k Haiku:

Tactically deploying.
My models will slay him first.
He rolls. Fething six.

As said before, main problem is the lack of LOS blocking terrain. Most tables are 4-6 pieces of terrain and no real LOS blockers.
Night rules would have been an option, like in previous editions.
Sure then the 2nd turn will have more casualties but it makes the game a bit longer and both players can only do some limited damage in the first turn.
Plus melee armies get a better chance to go in position.
In addition with better terrain this should work.


And people need to change their thinking / army building / deploying for the new edition.
Because it simply is bloodier and more units can be taken of the battlefield much faster.

Just take the reserves for example. So many builds go for alpha strike in first turn while playing more defensive gives many other tactic options and you can bring objective grabbing stuff in turn 3.
Or wait for the enemy to split his forces / move forward and leave his safe deployment spots.
But yeah, let`s get all the stuff killed before round 3.

A straight forward solution is to play maelstrom, and then have both players write down the number of victory points they think going first is worth it. The higher number gets first turn, while his opponents starts the game with said number of victory points.

I chose to go second in my last game and won. It was a close game, but as Orks with not much in the way of shooty I thought going second would let my opponent get closer for a turn 1 charge and that's exactly how it worked out.

Also it gives you the last move on turn 5, or whichever turn the game ends.

I think another factor in lessening the impact of turn 1 was the 30man squads were all my opponent could really shoot at, with weapons that were clearly for vehicles.

I go second with my foot-slogging transportless sisters and am undefeated so far.

Another good thing about going second is reserves shenanigans

Going first might not give you a good opportunity to deep strike something in vs going second and watching the opponent move stuff around opening up more space

you could hold onto them till turn two but thats a whole turn they dont do anything.

 Desubot wrote:
Another good thing about going second is reserves shenanigans

Going first might not give you a good opportunity to deep strike something in vs going second and watching the opponent move stuff around opening up more space

you could hold onto them till turn two but thats a whole turn they dont do anything.

I always hold onto at least 1 unit to deepstrike until my opponent has used all of theirs. Going second gaurantees that you get the final deepstrike, which means you get to maximize it's positioning and impact on arrival. Lots of people deepstrike turn 1 because they can. I don't think they have realized what a bad idea it often is yet.

With my foot IG I always end up going second and so far I've won all but one game with them.

I don't even try to hide my stuff - I just let my opponent have a free turn of shooting. Doesn't bother me and my army is built to take a hit anyway.