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I personally think at this point, AOS is darker and more grim

Sure on the cover, you get flashy heroic looking knights riding dragons defeating evil(while forgetting how they lose a part of themselves every time they die)
But on the other hand, the life of the civilians and normal humans seem to suck even more; they are pretty much pushed off to the sidelines and if they die, no matter what faith they are(with the exception of chaos) they are all damned to go to Nagash's underworld and become part of his undead army

Meanwhile in 40k, sure the life of the average civilian in a hive world would suck(probably much less so on a civilized non hive world) but at least when they die, their soul just dissipates into the warp(or get claimed by the Emperah if you believe the Imperium says) and thats that, no being enslaved by death god to be part of his zombie army, unless you're on a planet infected with a nurgle blight

and this that I got from tv tropes

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/NightmareFuel/WarhammerAgeOfSigmar

"Let's not even talk about the flesh-eater courts. First off, unlike most other things in grand alliance: death, they aren't undead, just all under the same exact delusion. Unsettlingly enough, they all think that they are men-at-arms and knights in the court of a noble king, when in fact they are a mob of flesh-eating lunatics. What we see is a group of ghouls devouring a corpse. What they see is a their fellow noblemen dining on a victory feast. They see their noble king, draped in fine silks and gold, with his majestic dragon approach congratulate them and join the meal, but it's actually a gore-soaked ghoul king on a terrorgheist dropping by to eat the body alongside them. They might believe that they are charging in, swords raised, to slay an army of monsters, when they are in fact hunched abominations with bloodstained clubs made from femurs chasing down a group of fleeing civilians. The worst part? It's contagious, so don't be surprised if your buddies suddenly decide to join the court."

Well yes but I personally feel it is dark in other ways but flesh eater courts that's bloody dark. Honestly going to the underworld is a lot better than going to the realm of chaos nagash even says after a period of time souls pass on to places Unknown. Most likely reincarnation.

The vast majority of souls that go through the realm of death pass further on from there; the majority of fantasy undead are totally mindless. I would say with certainty that 40k is more grimdark, where AoS has taken the stance of the bad guys winning then the good guys pushing back.

they both feel "bubblegum pop" to me now. but there is a decisive tonal shift in both. Primaris and Stormcast are the turning of the tide so to speak. The previous editions where pretty much the good guys are borked, its just a matter of time before they fail. an instance of when not if the good guys lose. Now with the two new settings it feels like the good guys are on the march, they arent fighting not to lose anymore, they are fighting to win, and have the ability to do so. All that adds up to a more "heroic" game but certainly far less grimdark all around.

 thekingofkings wrote:
they both feel "bubblegum pop" to me now. but there is a decisive tonal shift in both. Primaris and Stormcast are the turning of the tide so to speak. The previous editions where pretty much the good guys are borked, its just a matter of time before they fail. an instance of when not if the good guys lose. Now with the two new settings it feels like the good guys are on the march, they arent fighting not to lose anymore, they are fighting to win, and have the ability to do so. All that adds up to a more "heroic" game but certainly far less grimdark all around.

Yeah I can see this but honestly I kinda prefer it because to me the lore for 40k and fantasy was getting to the point they were doing things for just the sake of being grimdark. Bretonnia is the worst offender of this in my opinion. I prefer this route were yes things are dark but the good guys can push back with grit and sacrifice.

 shinros wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:
they both feel "bubblegum pop" to me now. but there is a decisive tonal shift in both. Primaris and Stormcast are the turning of the tide so to speak. The previous editions where pretty much the good guys are borked, its just a matter of time before they fail. an instance of when not if the good guys lose. Now with the two new settings it feels like the good guys are on the march, they arent fighting not to lose anymore, they are fighting to win, and have the ability to do so. All that adds up to a more "heroic" game but certainly far less grimdark all around.

Yeah I can see this but honestly I kinda prefer it because to me the lore for 40k and fantasy was getting to the point they were doing things for just the sake of being grimdark. Bretonnia is the worst offender of this in my opinion. I prefer this route were yes things are dark but the good guys can push back with grit and sacrifice.

I think the new route appeals to more of the younger crowd as well, and to build growth, that is really a group you do have to throw them something. I don't prefer the new feel at all, but then I am not a big fan of either game anyhow. I will admit though that there are times when it just seems right for the heroes to get a win and roflstomp the invincible villains

I think 40k is far more grimdark. Look at servitors and they are made.

I don't think there is no milk in either cup of coffee.

It's like you ask yourself "how much more grimdark can you go", and the answer is like "none". From time to time, I think Nigel Tufnel works on the 40k and AOS storylines

no AoS is more noble dark then grim dark. That said however, 40k is starting to turn into noble dark

oops wrong post

Absolutely not. It's less grimdark than WHFB, which was already lighter on tone than 40k (until the End Times at least).

I mean their poster boy Not!SpaceMarines just get rezzed by The Emp- uh, Sigmar when they die, who are already great heroes/survivors who were brought back from death barely worse for wear. Sure there's the 'lost a bit of themselves' thing, but compared to permadeath that's a pretty damn good deal.

Then there's about 99% of the narrative revolving around the Sigmarines going out into the Mortal Realms and trying to drive back Chaos and, more often than not, succeeding.

Saying that, 40k's steadily turning less and less grimdark with its perverse lust for telling his how wicked and metal and epic yo the Primaris(tm) Marines are at just about everything. AoS never had "yeah the Imperium is doomed no matter what" hanging over its head, although I suspect they'll get rid of that soon enough in 40k.

It kind of seems like the 40k lore is taking a page from AoS. The empire is losing to the forces of Chaos with many planets being lost to warp storms and that giant rift thing. But oh look, here comes this boy scout from basically nowhere with an all new army of super soldiers just in time to mount a defense against Chaos and start reclaiming the universe. And sure, it's working at a macro level, but the boy scout may be doing the wrong things for the right reason, no doubt leading to additional distrust and conflict further down the line.

That being said, I don't really know the full 40k lore, so I might be over simplifying things. It's just my initial impressions from reading the 40k rulebook was that Guilliman was basically Sigmar.

 Arbitrator wrote:
Absolutely not. It's less grimdark than WHFB, which was already lighter on tone than 40k (until the End Times at least).

I mean their poster boy Not!SpaceMarines just get rezzed by The Emp- uh, Sigmar when they die, who are already great heroes/survivors who were brought back from death barely worse for wear. Sure there's the 'lost a bit of themselves' thing, but compared to permadeath that's a pretty damn good deal.

Then there's about 99% of the narrative revolving around the Sigmarines going out into the Mortal Realms and trying to drive back Chaos and, more often than not, succeeding.

Saying that, 40k's steadily turning less and less grimdark with its perverse lust for telling his how wicked and metal and epic yo the Primaris(tm) Marines are at just about everything. AoS never had "yeah the Imperium is doomed no matter what" hanging over its head, although I suspect they'll get rid of that soon enough in 40k.

Someone has not read on the actual effects of the reforging. What happens to them is worse than death. They have also not always succeeded either if you read the lore or books.

 shinros wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
Absolutely not. It's less grimdark than WHFB, which was already lighter on tone than 40k (until the End Times at least).

I mean their poster boy Not!SpaceMarines just get rezzed by The Emp- uh, Sigmar when they die, who are already great heroes/survivors who were brought back from death barely worse for wear. Sure there's the 'lost a bit of themselves' thing, but compared to permadeath that's a pretty damn good deal.

Then there's about 99% of the narrative revolving around the Sigmarines going out into the Mortal Realms and trying to drive back Chaos and, more often than not, succeeding.

Saying that, 40k's steadily turning less and less grimdark with its perverse lust for telling his how wicked and metal and epic yo the Primaris(tm) Marines are at just about everything. AoS never had "yeah the Imperium is doomed no matter what" hanging over its head, although I suspect they'll get rid of that soon enough in 40k.

Someone has not read on the actual effects of the reforging. What happens to them is worse than death. They have also not always succeeded either if you read the lore or books.

Thats not really what defines the grimdark/nobel dark. AoS actually has a hope/good part of humanity that they are protecting. 40k up until recent, has always been, everything sucks. Guardsmen? Enjoy a life space of about half a tour, space marine? Might survive 1 deployment and you have to give up everything you knew and loved. Just a normal citizen? Hope you like breathing in poison air anad working to death, dont even think about learning anything either. You took apart a toaster? *BLAM* Heresy!

40k has now gotten not so gakky anymore, where as before the best life to have in 40k was living on a feudal world probably

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 shinros wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
Absolutely not. It's less grimdark than WHFB, which was already lighter on tone than 40k (until the End Times at least).

I mean their poster boy Not!SpaceMarines just get rezzed by The Emp- uh, Sigmar when they die, who are already great heroes/survivors who were brought back from death barely worse for wear. Sure there's the 'lost a bit of themselves' thing, but compared to permadeath that's a pretty damn good deal.

Then there's about 99% of the narrative revolving around the Sigmarines going out into the Mortal Realms and trying to drive back Chaos and, more often than not, succeeding.

Saying that, 40k's steadily turning less and less grimdark with its perverse lust for telling his how wicked and metal and epic yo the Primaris(tm) Marines are at just about everything. AoS never had "yeah the Imperium is doomed no matter what" hanging over its head, although I suspect they'll get rid of that soon enough in 40k.

Someone has not read on the actual effects of the reforging. What happens to them is worse than death. They have also not always succeeded either if you read the lore or books.

Thats not really what defines the grimdark/nobel dark. AoS actually has a hope/good part of humanity that they are protecting. 40k up until recent, has always been, everything sucks. Guardsmen? Enjoy a life space of about half a tour, space marine? Might survive 1 deployment and you have to give up everything you knew and loved. Just a normal citizen? Hope you like breathing in poison air anad working to death, dont even think about learning anything either. You took apart a toaster? *BLAM* Heresy!

40k has now gotten not so gakky anymore, where as before the best life to have in 40k was living on a feudal world probably

You are missing the context of my last post, I clearly said before AOS is dark for different reasons and I am actually not a fan of the grimdark lately since most of it comes down to just doing it for the sake of it. Bretonnia is the worst offender of this in my opinion as I said before. The point of my last post was him downplaying the effects of reforging which I think is worse than death and his posts shows clearly he has not read barely any AOS material.

Nah I get that man, I'm just saying AoS is not as grim dark. Well on par with 40k now since 40k is more Nobel dark

Now that I know that going to Nagash's underworld is not the end game and that souls do pass on to other places from there, I don't think AOS is all too dark anymore

I originally thought that anyone(or anything) who didn't become stormcast or chaos was just doomed to have their soul taken by Nagash and forced to become one of his zombies for eternity

Well not eternity but it's likely a fate of many. All those legions of ghosts, zombies and skeletons are coming from somewhere after all.

Though it's probably like a draft/conscription in exchange for a safe haven so that your soul isn't devoured/torn apart/obliterated by chaos which exists all around the mortal realms.(though unfortunately you'll likely be fighting the daemons that'll destroy your soul while defending Nagash's realm)

Someone has not read on the actual effects of the reforging.

Someone hasn't read AoS period.

Remember that he's the "immortals fighting eachother over nothing" guy.

Now as for AoS being darker, I'd say no but it's still pretty dark. Noble dark was a good description.

The safest place in the setting, Azyrheim, still has cults and monsters lurking in it's depths ready for sacrifices and even Skaven can infiltrate it.

The realms themselves have been devastated by chaos and you get everything from animals trapped in chasms of warpfire and horribly mutating while trying to crawl out to tribes of mutants/cannibals/ghouls/greenskins ready to pounce on any helpless people who leave their villages/ruins, people and animals alike made into blood sport during the Age of Chaos in many twisted ways and monsters and giant beasts of all kinds stalking the wilds with chaos making things like swarms of manticores commonplace to attack at a hint of spilled blood.

The places ruled by Order can be terrible as well since fanatical priests have banished people and even babies to death for not being "perfect" in Sigmar's eyes. Sigmar's servants, from Stormcast to witch hunters, carry out purges of those even suspected to be touched by chaos while the cities have to deal with corrupt officials and illegal criminal rings that range from assassinations to pirates flaying people for their ship prows as a warning.

So really it's a good mix of dark. No place is safe and horrible fates from to death to damnation are everywhere.

Grimdark in 40k is about how the galaxy has come to be due to misuse of technology, power, the nature of mortals' dark emotions, evil outside forces etc. AoS could be called grimdark on basis of what the realms are and how they exist in addition to any outside or inside influences. Yes, the current grimdark has been mainly due to chaos invading all the realms, but even without chaos Ghur would be the equivalent of a deathworld, Ghyran - that of a hostile alien civilization that cares not for the wellbeing of others, Azyr could be a place of absolute order and maybe tyranny and Shyish could be a haunted world like the plane of Innistrad. My examples are rather exaggerated, but I did it on purpose to illustrate my hypothesis.