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Ok So the new CSM dex is out and the new Stratagem Tide of Traitors says that you may take a unit of cultists, remove them, then set them up somewhere else on the board at their full starting strength. In the BRB for matched play, it says on page 214 that if you add a unit or replace a destroyed unit, then you must set aside points in your list to make up that added unit. Ok, pretty clear. The question goes towards that stratagem though on whether or not you need to set aside points in a matched play game to use that ability.

My argument is no, you do not need to set aside points, and there's nothing stopping you from having a squad of 40 cultists, having 39 of them killed, using the stratagem, and then taking that one survivor and turning it back into a 40 man squad with all of the original upgrades along one of the board edges.

My main reasoning is that rules as written in the BRB states that you must add points to your list if you are creating a brand spanking new unit or replacing a unit that has already been destroyed. Since that unit of 40 cultists has not been destroyed and you're not making a new unit, just replenishing it back to full strength, you do not need to set aside points. Nowhere does it say on page 214 that you need to set aside points to replenish models, just set aside points to make brand new units.

I feel like I'm being a rules lawyer here, but at the same time it feels pretty clear to me. Does anyone else know of a rule that would ruin this idea or does it sound pretty good? I'm a CSM player, and I own close to 150 cultists, so this one seemed right up my alley lol

I concur with your assessment. I look at it like Necron Warriors repair protocols or Poxwalkers.

It's no different to the replacement Gants rule. You're not adding new models, you're respawning slain ones.

Reinforcement points only deals with creating or placing new units, the chaos strategem does not create a new unit so RAW you don't need to use the reinforcement points rule.

Ah man I'm so excited to play a game now lol

It's an interesting strategem because it's kind of a gamble.

Do you let the you it get really low and use it, do you use it at half strength.

blaktoof wrote:
It's an interesting strategem because it's kind of a gamble.

Do you let the you it get really low and use it, do you use it at half strength.

Almost all of 40k is a gamble, especially playing as chaos lol but yeah, I know what you mean. I just like the idea of bouncing around units of Alpha legion cultists. Seems fluffy to me too.

would they retain the buff from Fabius? Also, would the slain models get buffs??

broo wrote:
would they retain the buff from Fabius? Also, would the slain models get buffs??

That is a good question. I personally would say no, because it's meant to be a fresh unit, but it can be argued because it's replacing models and not generating new ones, they would benefit.

If it's the case they do benefit, then the whole unit would benefit regardless of how many were slain before being respawned because Fabulous Bill's buff applies to the unit, not the individual models.

Yeah, regardless of what it is supposed to represent, in the rules its still the same unit (just all the models brought back into it), so they would absolutely benefit from any unit buffs that were already affecting them.

I disagree. The Valhallan unit brings a unit back from the dead and that costs reinforcement points. I think only poxwalkers and necrons don't take them up

 ulfhednir86 wrote:
I disagree. The Valhallan unit brings a unit back from the dead and that costs reinforcement points. I think only poxwalkers and necrons don't take them up

That's the thing, the valhallan stratagem brings a unit back from the dead. Tide of Traitors doesn't

 ulfhednir86 wrote:
I disagree. The Valhallan unit brings a unit back from the dead and that costs reinforcement points. I think only poxwalkers and necrons don't take them up

Tide of Traitors is different from the Valhallan thing as it requires you to remove a unit from the board first before removing them and setting them up at full strength. If the unit is dead, then it isn't there to take off the board in the first place. Since the unit's around, you don't pay reinforcement points to bring it back to full strength. There's a difference between a unit being dead and a unit only being mostly dead. If the unit's mostly dead, you can use Tide of Traitors to move them elsewhere at full strength and let them have fun storming the castle. If the unit's dead, all you can do is go through their pockets for loose change.

I'd agree that the Vahallan one would need reinforcement points if it's bringing in a new unit rather than just restocking one that's already there.

Other elements in the Chaos Codex elaborate on whether or not your need reinforcement points to use them (some of the boons, etc.). I've seen everyone else speaking about it as if you do not need reinforcement points.

I don't have enough cultists to bother, but I am curious what the ruling is.