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I'm having yet another debate about removing casualties within a phase, I'll make 2 example scenarios:

1. I charge one unit and get to fight, my chainswords deal some damage and the opponent removes models in such a way that my Fist is not in range anymore to attack in the same phase, am I still allowed to strike with the Fist?

2. My opponent declares his targets in the shooting phase from a unit with multiple weapons, HB and Bolter are aimed at the same unit, HB goes first and remove casualties in such a way that the regular Bolter is not in range anymore, can he still shoot at my unit even thought it became out of range?

 Gendo wrote:
I'm having yet another debate about removing casualties within a phase, I'll make 2 example scenarios:

1. I charge one unit and get to fight, my chainswords deal some damage and the opponent removes models in such a way that my Fist is not in range anymore to attack in the same phase, am I still allowed to strike with the Fist?

2. My opponent declares his targets in the shooting phase from a unit with multiple weapons, HB and Bolter are aimed at the same unit, HB goes first and remove casualties in such a way that the regular Bolter is not in range anymore, can he still shoot at my unit even thought it became out of range?

1) Yes. All attacks happen at the same time, who gets to hit what is determined at step 3 of the Fight Phase and can't change from then on. However, you can end up killing so many enemies that you don't get within 1" after a consolidate move, which means you end up out of combat after making your attacks.

2) Again, yes. All attacks happen at the same time, who gets to hit what is determined at step 3 of the Shooting Phase and can't change from then on. You don't shoot with the Heavy Bolter and then shoot with the Bolters, you shoot them all at the same time, then resolve their attacks one by one. The "legality" of the shot is checked before the attacks are made.

 Gendo wrote:
I'm having yet another debate about removing casualties within a phase, I'll make 2 example scenarios:

1. I charge one unit and get to fight, my chainswords deal some damage and the opponent removes models in such a way that my Fist is not in range anymore to attack in the same phase, am I still allowed to strike with the Fist?

2. My opponent declares his targets in the shooting phase from a unit with multiple weapons, HB and Bolter are aimed at the same unit, HB goes first and remove casualties in such a way that the regular Bolter is not in range anymore, can he still shoot at my unit even thought it became out of range?

As the rules state wounding is identical to the shooting phase example 1 seems to be a legit move. better attack with the power fists first next time

and number 2 as shots are all one weapon at a time yeah that can happen. should of shot the bolters first.

fast dice just helps speed up the game even though at very rare times in the case of maximum distances it can net you extra kills.

 Desubot wrote:

 Gendo wrote:
I'm having yet another debate about removing casualties within a phase, I'll make 2 example scenarios:

1. I charge one unit and get to fight, my chainswords deal some damage and the opponent removes models in such a way that my Fist is not in range anymore to attack in the same phase, am I still allowed to strike with the Fist?

2. My opponent declares his targets in the shooting phase from a unit with multiple weapons, HB and Bolter are aimed at the same unit, HB goes first and remove casualties in such a way that the regular Bolter is not in range anymore, can he still shoot at my unit even thought it became out of range?

As the rules state wounding is identical to the shooting phase example 1 seems to be a legit move. better attack with the power fists first next time

and number 2 as shots are all one weapon at a time yeah that can happen. should of shot the bolters first.

fast dice just helps speed up the game even though at very rare times in the case of maximum distances it can net you extra kills.

Sorry but this is totally wrong. Please re-read the rules for shooting and the fight phase. You determine who is attacking at step 3 and at no point does this change or be rechecked while resolving the attacks.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Sorry but this is totally wrong. Please re-read the rules for shooting and the fight phase. You determine who is attacking at step 3 and at no point does this change or be rechecked while resolving the attacks.

you appear to be correct there is no rechecks.

 Desubot wrote:

 Gendo wrote:
I'm having yet another debate about removing casualties within a phase, I'll make 2 example scenarios:

1. I charge one unit and get to fight, my chainswords deal some damage and the opponent removes models in such a way that my Fist is not in range anymore to attack in the same phase, am I still allowed to strike with the Fist?

2. My opponent declares his targets in the shooting phase from a unit with multiple weapons, HB and Bolter are aimed at the same unit, HB goes first and remove casualties in such a way that the regular Bolter is not in range anymore, can he still shoot at my unit even thought it became out of range?

As the rules state wounding is identical to the shooting phase example 1 seems to be a legit move. better attack with the power fists first next time

and number 2 as shots are all one weapon at a time yeah that can happen. should of shot the bolters first.

fast dice just helps speed up the game even though at very rare times in the case of maximum distances it can net you extra kills.

You only check line of sight and range for a unit during Step 2 of the Shooting phase (Choose Targets). You do not repeat this step again for the unit, instead repeating Step 4 (Resolve Attacks). Therefore you can not pull casulaties to take a weapon out of range.

Ok, two different opinions reflecting the ones in my local club.

Every shot/attack it's resolved one at a time which means you go through the sequence each time, same as shooting the only difference being you don't have to declare your attacks in the Fight phase but just the unit you're Fighting against.

The Designer's Doc makes it clear especially because they talk 'within the same phase' and not someone becoming disengaged because of casualties on the next turn.

The main benefit from removing casualties would be to become disengaged in the subsequent (or from a second unit) turn according to @BaconCatBug interpretation.

If a model can make more than one close combat attack
(see right), it can split them between eligible target units
as you wish. Similarly if a unit contains more than one
model, each can target a different enemy unit. In either
case, declare how you will split the unit’s close combat
attacks before any dice are rolled, and resolve all attacks
against one target before moving on to the next.

Close combat attacks can be made one at a time, or in
some cases you can roll the dice for a number of attacks
together. The attack sequence for making close combat
attacks is identical to that used for shooting attacks
except you use the model’s Weapon Skill characteristic
instead of its Ballistic Skill to make hit rolls.

The weapons a model has are listed
on its datasheet. If a model has several
weapons, it can shoot all of them at the
same target, or it can shoot each at a
different enemy unit. Similarly, if a unit
contains more than one model, they can
shoot at the same, or different targets as
you choose. In either case, declare how
you will split the shooting unit’s shots
before any dice are rolled, and resolve
all the shots against one target before
moving on to the next.

The rules for resolving
attacks have been written
assuming you will make
them one at a time.
However, it is possible to
speed up your battles by
rolling the dice for similar
attacks together. In order
to make several attacks at
once, all of the attacks must
have the same Ballistic Skill
(if it’s a shooting attack) or
the same Weapon Skill (if
it’s a close combat attack).
They must also have the
same Strength, Armour
Penetration and Damage
characteristics, and they
must be directed at the
same unit. If this is the
case, make all of the hit
rolls at the same time, then
all of the wound rolls. Your
opponent can then allocate
the wounds one at a time,
making the saving throws
and suffering damage
each time as appropriate.
Remember, if the target
unit contains a model
that has already lost any
wounds, they must allocate
further wounds to this
model until either it is slain,
or all the wounds have been
saved or resolved.

There's a couple things to note: T'au Markerlights for example can be sequenced in such a way that a unit of pathfinders could benefit from its own markerlights, by firing them one at a time, each successive shooter has the benefit of the successful hits on the target that happened before it shot. The other thing however is, Markerlights dont wound whatsoever.

The shooting rules and hence the CC rules state though that you

1.Choose the unit to shoot/attack with,
2.Declare Target, Determine Range, LOS,
3.Declare weapons the unit will be using to fire
4.Resolve

Which suggests you've declared the chainsword and the powerfist, and have already determined the number of eligible attacks for the round of CC regardless of what order you resolve them.

This would lead me to think that yes, he can remove the models he wants, in any order he wants, but he can't prevent you from swinging the powerfist. So, he can use models with 2++ saves to eat the chainsword attacks and use a 6+ grunt to take the fist hit if he so chose to - but he can't remove models in such a way as to disrupt you in step 5 (resolve attacks) to negate some/all of the attacks you determined you had to resolve in step 4 (choose melee weapons) of the combat rules. This also means a player continues to resolve attacks for weapons even when the model(s) they used to be in-range for shooting have been killed by other shots already resolved.

This also supports the Markerlight ruling, in that those ML shots are all resolved in the Resolve Step, and determining for instance what BS the unit has for firing is determined in the Resolve Step. There are no perks in the tau markerlight table that would require you to return to an earlier phase (ie. theres no rule letting the attacking unit ignore line of sight, just perks that are resolvable in the Resolve Step)

Overheal wrote:
This would lead me to think that yes, he can remove the models he wants, in any order he wants, but he can't prevent you from swinging the powerfist. So, he can use models with 2++ saves to eat the chainsword attacks and use a 6+ grunt to take the fist hit if he so chose to - but he can't remove models in such a way as to disrupt you in step 5 (resolve attacks) to negate some/all of the attacks you determined you had to resolve in step 4 (choose melee weapons) of the combat rules.

I can't think of any units that have mixed saves? If you were in combat with say a unit and a character, you would allocate the fist to the character and they would have to take the hit as it is a separate entity from the unit of grunts.

But yeah BCB is correct, you determine LOS/Range at 3 and resolve shots starting at 4.

promithius wrote:

Overheal wrote:
This would lead me to think that yes, he can remove the models he wants, in any order he wants, but he can't prevent you from swinging the powerfist. So, he can use models with 2++ saves to eat the chainsword attacks and use a 6+ grunt to take the fist hit if he so chose to - but he can't remove models in such a way as to disrupt you in step 5 (resolve attacks) to negate some/all of the attacks you determined you had to resolve in step 4 (choose melee weapons) of the combat rules.

I can't think of any units that have mixed saves? If you were in combat with say a unit and a character, you would allocate the fist to the character and they would have to take the hit as it is a separate entity from the unit of grunts.

But yeah BCB is correct, you determine LOS/Range at 3 and resolve shots starting at 4.

Wolf Guard terminator in a unit of grey hunters.

Your being played by a TFG, all attacks happen at once, in the shooting at assault phase. If at the start of the shooting phase, all your weapons were in range, they are all in range, no removing guys to get you outta rapid fire range.

Same thing with melee, if the guy in your back lines is an inch away from a model, he can still swing, your opponent cant remove that close model in order to not get fisted.

You are getting played son.

Also overheating weapons resolve their attacks before wounding the firer.

 3orangewhips wrote:

promithius wrote:

Overheal wrote:
This would lead me to think that yes, he can remove the models he wants, in any order he wants, but he can't prevent you from swinging the powerfist. So, he can use models with 2++ saves to eat the chainsword attacks and use a 6+ grunt to take the fist hit if he so chose to - but he can't remove models in such a way as to disrupt you in step 5 (resolve attacks) to negate some/all of the attacks you determined you had to resolve in step 4 (choose melee weapons) of the combat rules.

I can't think of any units that have mixed saves? If you were in combat with say a unit and a character, you would allocate the fist to the character and they would have to take the hit as it is a separate entity from the unit of grunts.

But yeah BCB is correct, you determine LOS/Range at 3 and resolve shots starting at 4.

Wolf Guard terminator in a unit of grey hunters.

Eldar Guardian Defenders with Heavy Weapon Platform.

 Happyjew wrote:

 3orangewhips wrote:

promithius wrote:

Overheal wrote:
This would lead me to think that yes, he can remove the models he wants, in any order he wants, but he can't prevent you from swinging the powerfist. So, he can use models with 2++ saves to eat the chainsword attacks and use a 6+ grunt to take the fist hit if he so chose to - but he can't remove models in such a way as to disrupt you in step 5 (resolve attacks) to negate some/all of the attacks you determined you had to resolve in step 4 (choose melee weapons) of the combat rules.

I can't think of any units that have mixed saves? If you were in combat with say a unit and a character, you would allocate the fist to the character and they would have to take the hit as it is a separate entity from the unit of grunts.

But yeah BCB is correct, you determine LOS/Range at 3 and resolve shots starting at 4.

Wolf Guard terminator in a unit of grey hunters.

Eldar Guardian Defenders with Heavy Weapon Platform.

It can also happen with units that have storm shields or combat shields depending on the weapon ap.

Or Crisis Teams when some of the models in the unit pay for a shield generator.

promithius wrote:

Overheal wrote:
This would lead me to think that yes, he can remove the models he wants, in any order he wants, but he can't prevent you from swinging the powerfist. So, he can use models with 2++ saves to eat the chainsword attacks and use a 6+ grunt to take the fist hit if he so chose to - but he can't remove models in such a way as to disrupt you in step 5 (resolve attacks) to negate some/all of the attacks you determined you had to resolve in step 4 (choose melee weapons) of the combat rules.

I can't think of any units that have mixed saves? If you were in combat with say a unit and a character, you would allocate the fist to the character and they would have to take the hit as it is a separate entity from the unit of grunts.

But yeah BCB is correct, you determine LOS/Range at 3 and resolve shots starting at 4.

Crusader squads can have marines and scouts.