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I'm trying to build a competitive and fun C:SM Crimson Fist army and I'm not sure if I should try and go w/the brigade detachment or not. It seems like a big point investment and you can't take any full strength squads so it seems like you end up w/lots of units but not many bodies in your army. I was hopeful my to get some input please let me know w/you all think.

It's pretty much impossible for me to field a competitive brigade, so my personal stance is, "don't bother."

Impossible to do for 2k primarus only brigade.

then again you are chucking a TON of points into a troop slot and if they are not very good its probably not worth it.

but more importantly how many times are you expecting to use command points per game.

there is more or less value depending on what you take.

its good to have them if you are wombo comboing something like drop pod sternguard with marksmen and bolter drill combo, if you have a lot of preds or vindicators for kill shot or bombardment but do you expect 1 of 3 tanks to survive more than one turn?

For imperial guard it's almost trivial to do. For other armies, no so much.

Depends on your army.

IG? Trivial.

Everyone else? Not so much.

Nids have it easy too. Beyond them and AM it looks dire though.

Orks may be able to do it if you double down on Grots, but I assume that is more of a waste of points than the other two.

I think the brigade detachment is more meant for apocalypse-level games.

Brigade Detachment is something for horde armies to play with, the rest of us can't touch it.

I dont see the problem. Its easy to get a SM brigade under 1500 pts., and not just barenaked without any heavy weapons. At 2000 pts. they would be very well equipped.

I do it pretty easy and regularly with my Dark Eldar, since I can take two troop squads of five and squeeze them into a single transport. The extra CPs are very handy for rerolling those dark lances, and I've faced brigades of Sisters of Battle, Guard, and Raven Guard at one point.

If there weren't limits on using the same strategem twice in a phase then it might make sense to load up on like 15 command points. Since you are limited it doesn't make much sense to weaken your army to go for command points. For gaurd though theres not reason not to because basically everything in the codex is good enough to make up the difference and their troops and HQ are cheap AF.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Orks may be able to do it if you double down on Grots, but I assume that is more of a waste of points than the other two.

I think the brigade detachment is more meant for apocalypse-level games.

You don't need grots actually, just 6 units of 30 boyz you may want anyway. HQs are never enough: warbosses, big meks, weirdboyz... it's too easy to bring three of them without regretting it. Elites are also very easy to field among painboyz, nobz with banner and min units of kommandos. Just add 3 single big guns/mek gunz as objective holders and 3 FA which are basically the tax of the detachment. You can go with 3 min units of stormboyz or buggies/koptas. Decent list but nothing overpowered, you can have a more competitive one using other detachments.

However the majority of the armies couldn't bring an effective brigade detachment even a 2500 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
I do it pretty easy and regularly with my Dark Eldar, since I can take two troop squads of five and squeeze them into a single transport. The extra CPs are very handy for rerolling those dark lances, and I've faced brigades of Sisters of Battle, Guard, and Raven Guard at one point.

3 HQs are a huge tax for dark eldar though, none of them is very good and they don't have great synergy with other units. We're short on elites choices too, basically only mandrakes if we want to bring a brigade, since grots and trueborn would be expensive and incubi are not that great.

Chaos can make a go at it, leaning on min Berzerker Squads for Elites and a Single Spawn for each Fast Attack choice, but I'm just not sure the necessary cuts would be worth it. If you spammed Cultists though, you'd have a lot of points to spare.

As codexes come out, more CPs might be useful since each army comes with it's own new ways to spend them. I'll probably try it out at some point.

Cultists (10) 40
Cultists (10) 40
Cultists (10) 40
Cultists (10) 40
Cultists (10) 40
Cultists (10) 40
Berzerkers (5) 80
Berzerkers (5) 80
Berzerkers (5) 80
Spawn 33
Spawn 33
Spawn 33
Havocs (5) Lascannon 90
Havocs (5) Lascannon 90
Havocs (5) Lascannon 90

=849

Plenty of room for three characters and buffing your FOCs of choice actually.

I have an Ulltramarines Brigade (10th Co. Scouts) that comes out to 1996 points.

------------------

HQ

Captain on Bike, TH and Armor Indomitus
Chaplain on Bike
Sgt Telion

TROOPS

(3) 5x Scouts with CCW and BP
(2) 10x Scouts with Bolters and HB
6x Scouts with Cloaks. 5 Snipers, 1 Missile.

ELITES

Apothecary
Apothecary on Bike
Honor Guard with Axes

HEAVY

5x Devastators 4 ML
5x Devastators 4 LC
Thunderfire Cannon w/ Techmarine Gunner

FAST

(3) Scout Biker Sgt, Scout Biker, Scout biker with GL

DEDICATED TRANSPORTS

(2) Land Speeder Storm with HB
Land Speeder Storm with MM

--------------------

It's a fairly versatile list, and with the Ultramarines Warlord Trait you are unlikely to use all 9 points in 5 turns.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Chaos can make a go at it, leaning on min Berzerker Squads for Elites and a Single Spawn for each Fast Attack choice, but I'm just not sure the necessary cuts would be worth it. If you spammed Cultists though, you'd have a lot of points to spare.

As codexes come out, more CPs might be useful since each army comes with it's own new ways to spend them. I'll probably try it out at some point.

Cultists (10) 40
Cultists (10) 40
Cultists (10) 40
Cultists (10) 40
Cultists (10) 40
Cultists (10) 40
Berzerkers (5) 80
Berzerkers (5) 80
Berzerkers (5) 80
Spawn 33
Spawn 33
Spawn 33
Havocs (5) Lascannon 90
Havocs (5) Lascannon 90
Havocs (5) Lascannon 90

=849

Plenty of room for three characters and buffing your FOCs of choice actually.

Here's hoping that when the DG codex drops, we get plague marines for troops. Can you imagine how awesome it would be to field a Brigade for even less points and with cult troopers with ObSec?

Guard can do it easier than most, but I think its way better currently to run 3x battalions for the same cp. 6 hq's are a breeze between primaris psykers, company commanders, tempestor primes, and pask/tank commanders. After that, its 9 troops which is again a breeze with cheap infantry squads, conscripts, and 5man scion teams. This also gives you more elite/heavy slots to play with than a brigade. In more casual games where I can run sentinels then I usually end up witg brigade + bn for 15cp. But at that point, you end up having more than you'd normally need unless you spend one just about every chance you get.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Chaos can make a go at it, leaning on min Berzerker Squads for Elites and a Single Spawn for each Fast Attack choice, but I'm just not sure the necessary cuts would be worth it. If you spammed Cultists though, you'd have a lot of points to spare.

As codexes come out, more CPs might be useful since each army comes with it's own new ways to spend them. I'll probably try it out at some point.

Cultists (10) 40
Cultists (10) 40
Cultists (10) 40
Cultists (10) 40
Cultists (10) 40
Cultists (10) 40
Berzerkers (5) 80
Berzerkers (5) 80
Berzerkers (5) 80
Spawn 33
Spawn 33
Spawn 33
Havocs (5) Lascannon 90
Havocs (5) Lascannon 90
Havocs (5) Lascannon 90

=849

Plenty of room for three characters and buffing your FOCs of choice actually.

Here's hoping that when the DG codex drops, we get plague marines for troops. Can you imagine how awesome it would be to field a Brigade for even less points and with cult troopers with ObSec?

Codex: Hard to Shift. Not sure how theyd do it with fewer points though.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Here's hoping that when the DG codex drops, we get plague marines for troops. Can you imagine how awesome it would be to field a Brigade for even less points and with cult troopers with ObSec?

They removed Troop WE Zerkers, so DG Troops PM are probably axed too.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Here's hoping that when the DG codex drops, we get plague marines for troops. Can you imagine how awesome it would be to field a Brigade for even less points and with cult troopers with ObSec?

They removed Troop WE Zerkers, so DG Troops PM are probably axed too.

Death Guard and Thousand Sons both lack basic CSM, it'd be ridiculous if they made it so you can't take any sort of marine as a troop.

Arachnofiend wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Here's hoping that when the DG codex drops, we get plague marines for troops. Can you imagine how awesome it would be to field a Brigade for even less points and with cult troopers with ObSec?

They removed Troop WE Zerkers, so DG Troops PM are probably axed too.

Death Guard and Thousand Sons both lack basic CSM, it'd be ridiculous if they made it so you can't take any sort of marine as a troop.

So they will more likely add in the basic CSM datasheet rather than add in a special rule that's been removed for the CSM codex.

...Right, Thousand Sons with basic CSM. Because that makes sense.

Arachnofiend wrote:
...Right, Thousand Sons with basic CSM. Because that makes sense.

Makes about as much sense as non-Thousand Sons Rubric Marines, which we have.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Orks may be able to do it if you double down on Grots, but I assume that is more of a waste of points than the other two.

I think the brigade detachment is more meant for apocalypse-level games.

You dont have to take grots. The problem is more the fast attack and heavy support choices, that you may not want in an infantry heavy list. My current list consists of four battalions for that reason.

UM Brigade here: Still needs some tweeking.
https://youtu.be/u1nXbD9SXnE

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:
...Right, Thousand Sons with basic CSM. Because that makes sense.

Makes about as much sense as non-Thousand Sons Rubric Marines, which we have.

That actually does make sense, the Legions aren't exactly cohesive anymore.