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Hello! My nephews (and shortly thereafter my daughter) stumbled into the world of 40k. I played 40k since Rogue Trader days up through 4th edition after packing it all away in the basement. But I've found myself unpacking everything for the next generation to enjoy
I picked up a used copy of the 5th edition and 6th edition rulebooks, and after reading up on the various changes over the years, it seems like a lot of people really liked 5th edition as a reasonably well-balanced and not overly-cumbersome rule set. Seems to have a good balance between shooty vs. close combat oriented armies, vehicles were in a pretty good position, etc. 6th edition and 7th addition seemed to be adding a lot more rule complexity to the game (maybe closer to 2nd ed in some ways?). Now that 8th edition is here - it seems to have wiped the slate clean again and returned to a simpler rule set.
So some questions...
#1 - Is my appraisal of the above situation with respect to the editions about right?
#2 - I'm contemplating teaching the kids 5th Edition, but maybe making a few minor house rules here and there (wound allocation seems overly cumbersome). My sense is that this is an easier set of rules that simplifies things (more squad/unit based control rather than individual unit control) compared to 6th & 7th edition. I can pick up 4-5 used codexes for 5th edition for cheap and we'd be pretty much good to go without much cost investment. Any reason to not go down this path?
#3 - If I stick with 5th edition, are there any favorite house rules people use to balance mechanics or improve play? E.G, use 4th edition wound allocation?
#4 - How is 8th edition in comparison to 5th edition? Seems like it has returned to a more streamlined and refined rule set. But comments seem to suggest that CC-armies don't fare as well at the moment? I'd also rather avoid the wait / expense of getting new codex books when I can dive into 5th edition right now on the cheap. But are there major innovations in the rules that would really make 8th edition worth trying?
#5 - The 8th edition index books - are these full/complete rulesets for the various factions from unit and rule standpoint? Or are the individual army books to be released subsequently likely to add a lot more down the road? Seems silly to drop $25 per index and then have to also buy the codex down the road .... then again this is GW.
#6 - Any other suggestions?
FWIW - I have a modest amount of Eldar, Orks, Space Marines, and Space Wolves - along with some Tau for good measure. The kids want to play some combination of Ork, Marines, Space Wolves, and Dark Eldar (or maybe just Eldar).
Thanks!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/15 16:15:46
So far, the codexes have made minor changes to the points values of things in the interest of balance, and added extra thematic bonuses to subfactions. Neither of those things are necessary to play and enjoy the game at a "playing with nephews and daughter" level.
The leanest, simplest ruleset for 40k in any edition is the current 8th ed rules pack, the indexes, and the open war objective cards. I can't recommend them enough for playing with new players and teaching the game.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
If you're looking to bring people into the game, and are just looking to have fun, rather than be hyper-competitive and stay on top of the latest thing, I'd say you couldn't do much better than grabbing the free rules primer for 8th, and the Index books for the factions you want to use. The big rulebook's got some scenarios and things, but isn't totally essential. The Open War card deck is a great way for generating scenarios too, and is only about a tenner.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/15 16:56:36
Mezmorki wrote: The primer rules don't seem to be the complete rules at all though correct? No rules for vehicles (among other things) - unless I'm missing something.
The only thing really missing from the primer rules is the advanced terrain section (which can easily be replaced by a reasonable "is the unit in terrain? It gets cover" ruling) and missions, which are covered excellently by the Open War deck.
The reason you don't see rules for vehicles is there are no separate rules for vehicles. You don't have to memorize AV vs Toughness tables or remember how Ramming and Tank Shocking works or whether a flyer is Zooming or Swooping or Flunging or Strafing or Frazzling, it all just follows the same rules.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Mezmorki wrote: The primer rules don't seem to be the complete rules at all though correct? No rules for vehicles (among other things) - unless I'm missing something.
The only thing really missing from the primer rules is the advanced terrain section (which can easily be replaced by a reasonable "is the unit in terrain? It gets cover" ruling) and missions, which are covered excellently by the Open War deck.
The reason you don't see rules for vehicles is there are no separate rules for vehicles. You don't have to memorize AV vs Toughness tables or remember how Ramming and Tank Shocking works or whether a flyer is Zooming or Swooping or Flunging or Strafing or Frazzling, it all just follows the same rules.
Ahhh..... so vehicles have toughness and wounds basically then?
Yes, they're basically just a keyword rather than an entirely different way of taking damage operating in the same game. I think that pulling them into the core game is possibly the biggest improvement in the new edition.
Mezmorki wrote: The primer rules don't seem to be the complete rules at all though correct? No rules for vehicles (among other things) - unless I'm missing something.
The only thing really missing from the primer rules is the advanced terrain section (which can easily be replaced by a reasonable "is the unit in terrain? It gets cover" ruling) and missions, which are covered excellently by the Open War deck.
The reason you don't see rules for vehicles is there are no separate rules for vehicles. You don't have to memorize AV vs Toughness tables or remember how Ramming and Tank Shocking works or whether a flyer is Zooming or Swooping or Flunging or Strafing or Frazzling, it all just follows the same rules.
Ahhh..... so vehicles have toughness and wounds basically then?
Bingo. It's definitely a bit incongruous when you've got it in your head since 1st ed that vehicles "should" behave differently, but (and some certainly disagree), once you get into the swing of it, it just makes things a bit more straightforward. I would imagine that for an entirely new player, without any of the baggage some of us oldies have, it would barely even register.
Mezmorki wrote: The primer rules don't seem to be the complete rules at all though correct? No rules for vehicles (among other things) - unless I'm missing something.
The only thing really missing from the primer rules is the advanced terrain section (which can easily be replaced by a reasonable "is the unit in terrain? It gets cover" ruling) and missions, which are covered excellently by the Open War deck.
The reason you don't see rules for vehicles is there are no separate rules for vehicles. You don't have to memorize AV vs Toughness tables or remember how Ramming and Tank Shocking works or whether a flyer is Zooming or Swooping or Flunging or Strafing or Frazzling, it all just follows the same rules.
Ahhh..... so vehicles have toughness and wounds basically then?
Yes. In theory, everything can hurt everything now. A lasgun can harm a Titan.
IF it rolls to hit, then rolls a 6 to wound, then the Titan rolls a 1 to save. THEN it deals 1 of its 45 wounds or whatever.
They also have strength and weapon skill, so they can fight normally in close combat in place of the old tank shocking rules. Typically though they're bad at hitting, but very strong, so the rhino is unlikely to hit you but if it does you'll feel it.
Basically there are a lot of systems like that in 8th that make it a dramatically easier ruleset to pick up. The biggest for me being the removal of Universal Special Rules. I remember 75% of the 5 hours my first game of fifth took was me and my buddy combing through the brick of a rulebook trying to figure out what "Hatred" was, or whatever. Everything lives on the datasheet for the unit now for the most part.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Well jeez.... you all may have just convinced me to abandon my plans to resurrect 5th edition.
How does the 8th edition balance seem between shooty versus melee oriented armies? I've seen people mention that melee armies are not fairing that well?
Also - destroyed vehicles don't remain on the board then? Or is that details in the data sheets?
Mezmorki wrote: Well jeez.... you all may have just convinced me to abandon my plans to resurrect 5th edition.
How does the 8th edition balance seem between shooty versus melee oriented armies? I've seen people mention that melee armies are not fairing that well?
Also - destroyed vehicles don't remain on the board then? Or is that details in the data sheets?
A lot of the conversation on any online forum is going to center around play at the tippy-top competitive level, with super powergamed lists. At that level, certain combos like "150 imperial guardsmen with a morale boosting character standing in front of a massive line of artillery" and "absolutely nothing but heavy space marine planes that can't be attacked in close combat by normal troops on the ground" have been giving some melee armies a hard time in the last few events. Though at the same time, certain combos like "giant hordes of teleporting ork boyz" have been achieving similarly high standings in the tournament circuit.
in really casual play, in my experience (observing the games of a group of about 50 people) it's actually all-shooting armies that have been getting more frustrated than melee armies. This is because once a melee army gets a few units into a shooting army, they can get caught in a loop of
unit is stuck in combat
unit falls back
unit can't shoot that turn because it fell back
melee unit charges it again and gets it stuck in combat again
Primarily this is a problem for people who built themed lists based on just one or a couple units, like "All imperial guard tanks with very minimal infantry keeping them safe" or "all squishy tau infantry shooting at long range." When someone pulls out one of the new tricks to slingshot a unit into close combat super fast (deep striking with jump packers and immediately trying to charge has returned with 8th) they end up not being able to do much because they didn't plan on close combat. The only close combat army players I've seen very frustrated with 8th are those who run a really slow, zero mobility type army that used to be able to just stand and take fire from most things. It's a little harder to build for a super-durable army in 8th.
The game plays very well if you're using a good variety of units. Also, the beauty of the objective cards I mentioned is that in addition to mission cards and deployment map cards, there are "battlefield effects" (to simulate if it's dark, or raining, or oh my goodness there's meteors) and extra advantages - the idea being that the missions are designed for people who might not necessarily have equal forces. This might be good if you're playing with younger players, and one person is just getting beat you could choose to use a battlefield condition that favors them, or give them an extra advantage card.
Automatically Appended Next Post: No, destroyed vehicles don't stay on the battlefield anymore. Though I suppose they could if you wanted them to, you're playing on your kitchen table after all (i assume?)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/15 17:19:43
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
I read a blog article yesterday talking about the culture shift at GW with the newer CEO at reigns trying to get back to the company's roots a bit more.
Its impressive that the rules have been simplified so much while at the same time (from looking at the index) and lot of flair and character still being retained. A lot of it hearkens back to 2nd edition feeling (difference in CCW weapons for example) and yet its wrapped up in a much cleaner set of mechanics.
Quite impressive really.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another question(s)
Maybe this is in the full rulebook (Match Play) but I'm not seeing the rulings governing army composition. Or is this all done via the detachment rosters in some fashion? Are the old requirements for a certain amount of troop units, etc. still around?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/15 17:27:40
I read a blog article yesterday talking about the culture shift at GW with the newer CEO at reigns trying to get back to the company's roots a bit more.
Its impressive that the rules have been simplified so much while at the same time (from looking at the index) and lot of flair and character still being retained. A lot of it hearkens back to 2nd edition feeling (difference in CCW weapons for example) and yet its wrapped up in a much cleaner set of mechanics.
Quite impressive really.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another question(s)
Maybe this is in the full rulebook (Match Play) but I'm not seeing the rulings governing army composition. Or is this all done via the detachment rosters in some fashion? Are the old requirements for a certain amount of troop units, etc. still around?
Pretty much. Command Points are a new mechanic that allows you to do some very good stuff (most commonly, re-roll any one critical die for one point) and building your army into the more restrictive detachments gets you more.
A basic detachment might have the minimum requirement of "1 HQ, 1 Elite/Fast Attack/Heavy Support for 1 command point" while a more restrictive one will have a lot more troops, and will give more points.
The only other restrictions I believe is that they suggest limiting the number of detachments to 3 for a normal sized game, and your army must share at least one faction keyword (so you can't have Chaos and the Imperium in the same army, but you can have Imperial Guard in an army with Space Marines). So while you can build an army with no troops if you like, you are at a disadvantage on the command point front vs an army with lots of troops.
it's a mix between 5th ed's "dirt simple" system and 7th's "vector calculus to build your army" system.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
I highly recommend 8th edition. Unlike 7th, I now spend more time playing the game, and less time looking up rules.
Also, the way 8th is structured encourages more aggressive game play, which can lead to far more bold strategies. Really very enjoyable.
You say Fiery Crash! I say Dynamic Entry!
*Increases Game Point Limit by 100*: Tau get two Crisis Suits and a Firewarrior. Imperial Guard get two infantry companies, artillery support, and APCs.
Mezmorki wrote: So the detachment stuff is all in the full rulebook then? Might need to pick that afterall!
Yeah, looking through the battle primer it does seem that the detachments and command point stuff is in the main rulebook. it's not the most necessary thing, and I wouldn't buy it first, but you could pick it up. If you're just going to make up armies for your relatives to play with, you don't necessarily need them.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
And the auxiliary ones, which aren't restricted to your faction.
Fortification: 1-3 fortifications. +0cp
Super-Heavy Auxiliary: 1 LoW. +0cp
Auxiliary Support: 1 non-LoW unit. -1cp
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Mezmorki wrote: Well jeez.... you all may have just convinced me to abandon my plans to resurrect 5th edition.
How does the 8th edition balance seem between shooty versus melee oriented armies? I've seen people mention that melee armies are not fairing that well?
Shooting is a safer and more consistent strategy than melee but melee armies are closer to being equal than they've been in a very long time (certainly more so than 5th).
And the auxiliary ones, which aren't restricted to your faction.
Fortification: 1-3 fortifications. +0cp
Super-Heavy Auxiliary: 1 LoW. +0cp
Auxiliary Support: 1 non-LoW unit. -1cp
So the other thing that's missing is what you actually "do" with these command points. That isn't in the primer either (unless, again, I'm completely missing something).
How are people's experience with playing power-level based games? Seems like it would be fine for the kids in messing around with the game, since I don't see them busting out a big calculator anytime soon. Of course, I can get an idea of what they want and just make a list for them. Thinking of starting small around 500 or 750 points. Just a few units per side.
Mezmorki wrote: How are people's experience with playing power-level based games? Seems like it would be fine for the kids in messing around with the game, since I don't see them busting out a big calculator anytime soon. Of course, I can get an idea of what they want and just make a list for them. Thinking of starting small around 500 or 750 points. Just a few units per side.
PL is great for the scenario your speaking of to get some new players started. PL begins to break down with large collections in a competitive environment as it's easy to cheese that system since you're not paying for equipment.
Mezmorki wrote: How are people's experience with playing power-level based games? Seems like it would be fine for the kids in messing around with the game, since I don't see them busting out a big calculator anytime soon. Of course, I can get an idea of what they want and just make a list for them. Thinking of starting small around 500 or 750 points. Just a few units per side.
PL is great for the scenario your speaking of to get some new players started. PL begins to break down with large collections in a competitive environment as it's easy to cheese that system since you're not paying for equipment.
Yeah, armies like the space wolves could be pretty abused, considering you can practically sink as many (or more) points into wargear for your units as the units themselves cost.
It's too bad the data sheet didn't just include the costs right on them, even if small and off to the side. Seems like it makes for a lot of cross-checking and page flipping all time.
Mezmorki wrote: So the other thing that's missing is what you actually "do" with these command points. That isn't in the primer either (unless, again, I'm completely missing something).
They aren't, I don't think.
Command points let you use a Stratagem. The three default Stratagems that all Battle-Forged armies have are "reroll any one dice roll", "give your unit a chance to hit back after an enemy charges", and "automatically pass a morale test". The various codices are adding in new army-unique ones.
Mezmorki wrote: How are people's experience with playing power-level based games? Seems like it would be fine for the kids in messing around with the game, since I don't see them busting out a big calculator anytime soon.
Eeeeeeh.
It's doable. But it's also much, much easier to powergame the system powerlevel system than points, and that's in spite of people practically making a living gaming the points system. Probably not a problem for you, of course, but it's a big concern amongst competitive players.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/15 21:01:38
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
So the other thing that's missing is what you actually "do" with these command points. That isn't in the primer either (unless, again, I'm completely missing something).
How are people's experience with playing power-level based games? Seems like it would be fine for the kids in messing around with the game, since I don't see them busting out a big calculator anytime soon. Of course, I can get an idea of what they want and just make a list for them. Thinking of starting small around 500 or 750 points. Just a few units per side.
Command Points are in the Advanced section of the rule book. Easy to ignore until you're group is ready.
Power Level works really well with per-existing armies/models. It's when you start adding in models built to take advantage of the system it starts to break down. I've played with both points and power and I like both. Although my preference slightly leaning towards power at the moment, but there are some players I will only play with using points.
Be sure to get Battlescribe on either your phone or PC to use for listbuilding. Every piece of wargear has a points cost now and if your kids have to spend 3 hours doing math before a game they aren't going to enjoy it.
Otherwise 8th is the best edition so far, and seems to be well received.
Personally, I think Power Levels is great. It lets you throw together a quick game without getting too bogged down in "am I doing the most points-efficient thing?" Again, it's great for if you just want to throw some dice around and have a fun game; if you think it's all Mega Serious Competitive Business, then it gets a bit shaky. But tbh, so do points-based games.
