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Hi,

How is shooting resolved against IG heavy weapons teams?

If a template weapon hits the large based heavy weapons teams, how many hits are caused, 1 or 2? Or does this depend on whether the actual figure on the base is covered?

Also, how do I remove casualties from a heavy weapons squad? Say a squad of 3 teams/6 guardsmen. If 3 wounds are dealt to it, can I choose to remove a figure from each team, thereby still leaving me with 3 functioning heavy weapons? Or does each base count as 2 models/wounds for purposes of model removal (and hence if 3 wounds are caused, I would have to remove a whole base plus 1 model from the second base)?

And how exactly does one keep track of the number of remaining models left in a heavy weapons squad, since the individual models on each base cannot be removed separately. Do I then treat each large base as a single model with 2 wounds, rather than 2 separate models on a single base?

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated! The whole 2 models on the same base thing has given me a headache...

1) This is a matter of debate, however good form says that if the large base is completly covered you get two hits, partialy, you get two partials

2)You can assign one wound to each loader leaving you 3 functioning heavy weapons

3)A lot of people, myself included base the loader seperatly, and then just leave a spot on the heavy weapon base to stand the loader. Makes it a whole lot easier to pull casualties.

Basically.. They are two separate models that just so happen to share a base. The new bases have confused alot of people but it never tells you to treat them as 2 wound models. If the base is partially covered treat it as two partial hits.

If that doesn't immediately seem fair or make sense, try to just break it down a little.

Remembering that the two models on the base are treated as two seperate models, who we'll call 'Bob' and 'Frank':

Step 1: Is Bob's base touched by the blast or template? If yes, then he is affected by it.
Step 2: Is Frank's base touched by the blast or template? If yes, then he is affected by it.

The fact that the base in both steps is the same one makes no difference to the way that the rules work.

This is an awful issue, I actually had a reshirt tell me that IG heavy weapons are always detroyed first in their squads because of the multiple wound model rules...

The best way to sove this is to take those heavy weapon bases and throw them away (I saved mine for mounting dreads on because I hate the rocks).

By Raw a figure can be mounted on the bases it comes with, or larger, since IG heavy weapons are still sold on standard 25 rounds, the easiest thing to do is to mount them seperately, on 25mm rounds, this works great for rocket launchers, I mounted my lascannons etc. on cavalry stands, larger than the rocket launchers but still technically legal by the rules (steel legion models are still sold this way with cav bases for heavy bolters and las cannons.) Just be sure and claearly model the gunner, as it could matter in assault casualties and also with assasin snipers or mindwar etc.

All my opponents have not noticed or thanked me. It removes an awful lot of headache from the game and takes away the stupid plate size base the 2 men end up on. Especially if you run 1+ heavy weapon companies, like I do, and have 6 or squads like that.

(Wait till you try to analyze the effect of the 2 man shared base in HtH and for kill zone... Shooting is only half of it.)

Seperate models for a fair clean game! The 2 men mounting is a foolish idea.

I also mount my boys on seperate 25mm bases Augustus, but I didn't think it mattered for sniping weapons. The way the team's description reads it leads to the conclusion that there is no possible way to eliminate the weapon without causing at least 2 wounds on the unit. So, those who use the big clunky base have an easier time with this one because they can simply mark 1 wound or do something to signify that the sniper has killed one of the team. Those of us with them based seperately must actually clearly mark which two members of the squad are in the team, and in the case of heavy weapon squads mark each team in a distinctive way from the other two. This must be done because when a sniper kills the "gunner" the gun must be moved to the "loader's" position.

I also have the missle launchers based seperately but have been using the old pie with removeable guy for the large guns. Since noone in my area plays anything that can snipe a model I haven't bothered to mark which guy is the secondary maybe I should get around to it. I haven't had any problems with close combat myself, since they just have to be within 2" of the giant base to be in combat . Doesn't happen much If I'm playing well anyway.

This is an awful issue, I actually had a reshirt tell me that IG heavy weapons are always detroyed first in their squads because of the multiple wound model rules...

The best way to sove this is to take those heavy weapon bases and throw them away (I saved mine for mounting dreads on because I hate the rocks).

I honestly don't understand why so many people seem to have problems with the 2-man base. If you simply apply the rules to each model exactly the same way you would for any other model, they function just fine.

The current codex, despite GW still selling some teams on seperate bases, was written with the current 2-man bases in mind. That's why there are no rules governing how the team works... they simply aren't necessary if the models are based together.

Basing the models seperately won't get you too many complaints, but it does require house rules to cover whether or not the team has to remain together, and which of them can use the weapon.


Edit: To clarify that a little, there are two assumptions that need to be made with the 2-man bases: That only one model is required to fire the weapon, and that they both can't fire the weapon in the same turn. But both of those are also required with seperately based teams, along with the other house rules that I mentioned. So using the 2-man bases stays closer to the rules as written.

I had been doing a 1/2 base for each model before but I think I'm going to switch to your system insaniak. I'm pretty much the only one using templates in my area so this will simplify when it does happen.

Posted By insaniak on 06/07/2006 5:02 PM
 but it does require house rules to cover whether or not the team has to remain together, and which of them can use the weapon.

I don't see why any house rules would be neccessary.

House rules are necessary because the current codex does not use a 'gunner' and a 'loader'... it simply has two models with a gun.

Using the 2-man base, this doesn't matter. You simply have two models and a gun, So long as one of the models is still alive, the weapon can be fired.

Using seperately bases teams, which model can fire the weapon? What happens if that model dies... can the other model fire the weapon? What if he is 12" away at the other end of the squad... does the weapon simply teleport to his position? Even with both models still alive, can the weapon be fired from either end of the squad if the team is 12" apart?

None of those questions needs an answer with the 2-man bases.

I asked this question a little while back, because I'd run into some 'intent' monkeys, who were inventing rules left and right about how you could never inflict more than one wound on a base with one attack (they weren't happy when I drew the logical conclusion that I could therefore cram all 10 troopers on one 60 mm base, therefore making it impossible for a template to ever inflict more than one casualty at a time).

I still use the 60mm bases for my Cadian HW teams, but I just ended up mounting all my pewter heavy weapons on Calvary bases, putting the loader on a 28. and just making sure that he stays in BtB contact with the calvary base.

"I honestly don't understand why so many people seem to have problems with the 2-man base. "

i think it comes from the feeling it's possible to lose 2 models easier on a large base ,than you can 2 models based

seperately. i personally don't like it, but thats the breaks!

No, I understand that some people just don't like them. It's the complete confusion over how the rules work for them that I'm not getting.

Well, I hate them! I like to put my teams in places where that darned huge base just couldn't fit like in a window or an alley or something. I also do understand the confusion on the subject. I don't think they explained themselves very well in the codex or the "clarification" in the FAQ. If they actually meant for all heavy weapon teams to be based together they probably shouldn't have pictured some based seperately in the codex! I can't remember, but did they picture any terminators on the 25mm bases in the space marine codex? For those of us who lived through the Loader and Gunner era it's confusing as well! When did they change that?! Anyways, rant aside I undersand how it is confusing for most. All other armies have a single model that carries the heavy weapon. If an enemy unit has an ability to snipe these models are subject to a hurtin. In our units the heavy weapon is used by a two man team so no unit can ever silence the weapon with a single wound. Here's my breakdown as I see it:

Large base:
Models attacking the base may be outnumbered by a single base. In other words, a model with a single attack fighting the base can only cause 1 wound killing 1 guardsman. The base can cause 2 wounds against.

Templates touching the base have their effects doubled. In other words, a partial on the base counts as two partials since two models are occupying the area of the base.

Ranges from the lasgun shot and heavy weapon shot (or both lasgun shots) are measured from the same spot since both models occupy the area of the base.

The first wound on the base can be absorbed without stopping the heavy weapon from firing even if the firing model is the only one visible.

Based seperately:
Assault works the same as it would for normal infantry.

Templates work the same as well.

Ranges from both models are measured from their own bases respectively.

If the model firing the weapon is the only one visible to an attack that causes a wound that model and no others must be removed as per the casualty removal rules, but the weapon can continue to fire since the team is not destroyed yet. This is what insaniak is talking about when he says we have to come up with house rules because there is nothing in the rulebook or codex that tells us weapons can change hands between squad members. It becommes even more confusing when the heavy weapon team is on seperate sides of the squad and hasn't taken any wounds yet. Can the player simply move the heavy weapon around at will between the two models? That's pretty cheesy.

As I said before I play it that if the "Gunner" is killed the weapon actually changes position to the "Loader" I actually just remove the "Loader" model and replace him with the "Gunner" model. All of my men are on 25mm bases with the weapons seperate so ranges are measured from the model's base and it is consistent. When in CC the weapons are simply moved out of the way so the men can be killed easier. I keep the team together. I might not keep them as close together as they would be if they were mounted together, but they are usually within 2" of each other and they are always distinct so my opponent has no question about what's going on. It actually has never come up. I think most people know our army is a little wonky so they don't ask too many questions.

Models attacking the base may be outnumbered by a single base. In other words, a model with a single attack fighting the base can only cause 1 wound killing 1 guardsman. The base can cause 2 wounds against.

If you're keeping your seperately-based team members within 2" of each other, this is going to happen anyway.

If you're keeping your seperately-based team members within 2" of each other, this is going to happen anyway.

I know, but because they're on the same base some are confused and think it's some sort of 2-wound guardsman. That's what it sounds like happened to Augustus anyways. It's not a 2-wound guardsman like the marine attack bike is a 2-wound model. It's a base with two guardsmen on it. I guess, tht point I was trying to make with that is that even though an enemy model's base is touching a single base, he is in BTB contact with two models. I can't think of a situation where that occurs elsewhere in the game. I get it, but I understand the confusion.

insaniak>   ...with the 2-man base. If you simply apply the rules to each model exactly the same way you would for any other model, they function just fine.

insaniak> ...but it does require house rules

Actually insaniak you have it backward, the rules can't be applied to 2 models on 1 base, because there aren't any in the rule book, and playing with a 2 man base is what requires house rules, seperating the gunner and having 2 individual models is actually what is covered by the rules, the figures are even sold that way. For example:

Where is a blast template centered on a 2 man base, a model, base center? How is a template that partially covers a 2 man base addressed? How many hits does a flamer do if it touches the base? Where is the 2 inch kill zone measured from if the 2 man base is in contact with enemy models in HtH? If the 2 man base is in 2 inches of a melee but not entirely, are both men eligible as casualties or not? Can both men strike back or not?  If a 2 man base charges into an assault and just barely reaches an enemy how many attacks should it get?

All these situations require house rules and intent arguments if played with 2 man bases as they are not covered in the rules.  2 models works like every other army in the game.

Overall its an example of bad form on GWs part that the situation exists, easily fixed with some different packaging... 

insaniak> Using seperately bases teams, which model can fire the weapon?

The one that has the weapon, you're kidding right?

insaniak> What happens if that model dies... can the other model fire the weapon?

Yes, its 2 men armed with a single weapon, in most cases an IG player wont select it as a casualty anyway so this can only happen in 2 cases, mindwar and sniper where the firer picks the target. No one ever mindwars a single IG and snipers have better things to do , so It's really kind of a silly point...

insaniak> What if he is 12" away at the other end of the squad... does the weapon simply teleport to his position?

What? There are no rules for swapping models.  No, the owning player would simply remove the loader.

insaniak> Even with both models still alive, can the weapon be fired from either end of the squad if the team is 12" apart?

No because the model that has the weapon fires it, and again, really? Are you claiming an IG player could place a loader on one end of a sqaud and the firer 20 inches away and then fire the weapon obviously modeled on the firer from the loaders position? Absurd.

Nice try, anymore?

insaniak> What happens if that model dies... can the other model fire the weapon?

Yes, its 2 men armed with a single weapon, in most cases an IG player wont select it as a casualty anyway so this can only happen in 2 cases, mindwar and sniper where the firer picks the target. No one ever mindwars a single IG and snipers have better things to do , so It's really kind of a silly point...

It's not silly at all. It can frequently happen; most often due to range and/or LOS restrictions on casualties.

Neither version is perfect in the rules, but your questions are just as easily answered:


Where is a blast template centered on a 2 man base, a model, base center?

You don't have to place the blast makrer over the center of a model's base. You have to place the center of the blast marker over a model's base (subtle difference). So in this case you can place the center of the blast marker anywhere over the big base.

How is a template that partially covers a 2 man base addressed?

A die is rolled for each model on the base (total of 2 dice) and one model is hit for each 4+ rolled.


How many hits does a flamer do if it touches the base?

Both models are hit if their base is touched by a template weapon.

Where is the 2 inch kill zone measured from if the 2 man base is in contact with enemy models in HtH?

It is measured 2 inches from their base, like all other models.

If the 2 man base is in 2 inches of a melee but not entirely, are both men eligible as casualties or not?

No model needs to be entirely within 2" to be engaged in combat. Only a tiny fraction of their base. So yes, if the big base is within 2" of a friendly model in base contact with the enemy both models on the big base would be engaged.

Can both men strike back or not? If a 2 man base charges into an assault and just barely reaches an enemy how many attacks should it get?

Absolutely. If the base containing both models is in base contact with the enemy or within 2" of a friendly model that is in base contact with the enemy then both models on the big base are considered engaged.



Again, I'm not saying one way is better than the other. Both have issues with the RAW. Both require a couple of gaming conventions to make things run smoothly.

Posted By yakface on 06/09/2006 2:03 AM



Where is a blast template centered on a 2 man base, a model, base center?

You don't have to place the blast makrer over the center of a model's base. You have to place the center of the blast marker over a model's base (subtle difference). So in this case you can place the center of the blast marker anywhere over the big base.

What about in the rules summary (In the back of the book) where it says to center the template on the base?

Actually insaniak you have it backward, the rules can't be applied to 2 models on 1 base, because there aren't any in the rule book
There don't need to be any specifically mentioned in the rulebook, because the existing rules work just fine.


Where is a blast template centered on a 2 man base, a model, base center?

Blast templates work on bases, not models. It works the same way it works for any other based model. If the model's base is affected by the Blast, the model is affected.


How is a template that partially covers a 2 man base addressed?

Exactly the same way as for any other base. If the model's base is affected by the template, the model is affected by the template.


How many hits does a flamer do if it touches the base?

Two, obviously. If the model's base is affected by the template, the model is affected by the template.


Where is the 2 inch kill zone measured from if the 2 man base is in contact with enemy models in HtH?

From the edge of the base, just like every other based model.


If the 2 man base is in 2 inches of a melee but not entirely, are both men eligible as casualties or not?

Why wouldn't they be? Distance between models is measured from base edge to base edge, not to the models themselves.


Can both men strike back or not?

Again, why wouldn't they be able to do so?


If a 2 man base charges into an assault and just barely reaches an enemy how many attacks should it get?

The base doesn'y get any attacks. The model gets to attack if it is in base contact, or within 2" of a friendly model in base contact.


All these situations require house rules and intent arguments if played with 2 man bases as they are not covered in the rules.

Nope. All of those answers just came straight from the rules. There is no reason to treat them any differently to any other model... because nothing in the rules tells you to do so.


insaniak> Using seperately bases teams, which model can fire the weapon?

The one that has the weapon, you're kidding right?

That's both of them, according to the Guard Codex. So, again, which one has the weapon?


insaniak> What happens if that model dies... can the other model fire the weapon?

Yes, its 2 men armed with a single weapon,

But you just said that only one of them has the weapon. Where is the rule that allows the other to take it if the first dies?


insaniak> What if he is 12" away at the other end of the squad... does the weapon simply teleport to his position?

What? There are no rules for swapping models.

Never said there were. But both models have the weapon, so something has to happen if the 'gunner' is singled out as a casualty.


No, the owning player would simply remove the loader.

Not always an option, due to range and LOS issues, torrent of fire, etc. Unless you add a house rule that allows you to always take the loader as a casualty.


insaniak> Even with both models still alive, can the weapon be fired from either end of the squad if the team is 12" apart?

No because the model that has the weapon fires it,

Again, BOTH models have the weapon. Try to find where in the Guard codex it specifies that one model has the weapon. It doesn't. You have TWO models with a weapon. Making one of them the 'gunner' is a house rule, nothing more.


Are you claiming an IG player could place a loader on one end of a sqaud and the firer 20 inches away and then fire the weapon obviously modeled on the firer from the loaders position?

No, I'm claiming that if you base your models seperately you need a house rule to stop this from happening, whereas with both models on a single base it isn't an issue...

Yak and Insaniac, I can actually see the logic of your system for 2 man bases. While I do think play is cleaner with seperate models I'm going to stop playing devils advocate.

Ultimately I think all your methods work fine and are in line with intent and fairness for dual model bases.  I just think that the play is much cleaner with seperate models, and GW has left us with both.  I think it also requires less handwaving, but because of the range and LOS requirements for casualty removal Yak posted I just can't argue that single models is 100% correct either.  I do wish you'd both admit that many of the conventions you mentioned are purely fabricated though, there really aren't any rules in the core book for 2 models on one base.

Ready for some humor? Ironically enough, I do have both 2 man bases and singles, some of the first lascannon teams I built were on the tea cup plates! I have 2. After I played them a couple of times I decided not to build them that way anymore.  I occasionally use them in command squads as a diferentiator in addition to my squad markings, to tell which heavy weapons are with whom in my big gun lines. So ya, I play both! How crazy is that?  I even have a heavy weapon mortar platoon with Archaic thud guns and amo crates on the big bases, but with seperate gunners too.

I suppose I just wanted to throw some oil in the fire because I've always been grumpy about the incosistency of the 2 man base rules with figures and raw also suggesting single models. Laughably, I'm not always consistent in my own army, but I try to be.  Carry on. I don't recall having any problems with it one way or the other in any play I have ever used them in.

I do wish you'd both admit that many of the conventions you mentioned are purely fabricated though

Which ones? Again, all of the answers I gave you were straight from the core rules.

I just can't resist being the trouble maker here! Sorry guys! Here's one that can go into the magic cylinder, LOS, model's eye view, whatever debate:

Where is the main body of the weapon team? If I must draw a LOS to the main body of a mini then where is it located on this strange small dioramma in the middle of your troops?

Like I said, I'm just causing trouble. Being a magic cylinder player myself I think the large base takes care of the whole issue (even though I don't use them). Also, I think you could argue over what is the "main body" of just about every miniature out there, so this isn't really specific to this case. But, it does throw a monkey wrench into the works!

Glaive,

to shoot each of the models on the base you'd still have to draw LOS to the body of each individual miniature.


Augustus,

I absolutely agree that gaming conventions have to be used with either method. The rules don't technically allow the possiblity of having more than one model on a base, and they certainly don't cover what happens when one of those models is removed as a casualty (most of us just mark the base with a die to show one of the models is dead).

Where is the main body of the weapon team? If I must draw a LOS to the main body of a mini then where is it located on this strange small dioramma in the middle of your troops?

You seem to be trying to treat them as a single model, which is not the case. LOS is drawn to the body of the model. Whether or not that model shares a base with another model is irrelevant.

I absolutely agree that gaming conventions have to be used with either method.

Yup, there are certain conventions required for each. Just as I see it, there are fewer conventions required for the 2-man bases, which makes them the better way to go, rules-wise.

Yup, there are certain conventions required for each. Just as I see it, there are fewer conventions required for the 2-man bases, which makes them the better way to go, rules-wise.

I obviously agree with that sentiment.

"Yak and Insaniac, I can actually see the logic of your system for 2 man bases."

it's not so much their system, as the rules of the game.

Sometimes I make logical jumps without explaining myself. I guess, what I meant by the statement about LOS to the main body was that with the two seperate bases the gun will move to another teammember (only because it seems to break the least amount of rules). On a single base the models actually change position at the player's will. If the base has one wound assigned to it can it draw LOS from either model to make it's shot with the lascannon? I don't see why not. The player can use the "loader" model for LOS one turn and the "Gunner" model the next regardless of wounds. So, really both methods behave almost identically except that the single base has less area to cover between it's two potential heavy weapon operators.

It doesn't matter anyways since I also agree that either method requires some assumption beyond the written rule to function. Come to think of it, how many rules DON'T require a basic assumption beyond what is written to work? Oh, this crazy game that we love so much. Yes, I said "love!"