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In My Lab

Relevant errata text:

Change this paragraph to read:
‘Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means
you get to roll some or all of the dice again. If a rule
allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding
several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6, etc.) then, unless
otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again.
You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls
happen before modifiers (if any) are applied.’


I had an opponent claim that meant that BOTH dice get rerolled if you spend a command point on, say, a charge. Is that accurate?

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 JNAProductions wrote:
Relevant errata text:

Change this paragraph to read:
‘Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means
you get to roll some or all of the dice again. If a rule
allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding
several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6, etc.) then, unless
otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again.
You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls
happen before modifiers (if any) are applied.’


I had an opponent claim that meant that BOTH dice get rerolled if you spend a command point on, say, a charge. Is that accurate?
Your opponent is talking rubbish. Read the CP Reroll stratagem again, it explicitly calls out the re-roll of only a single dice. What is unclear now however is whether the CP reroll allows you to use it on multi-dice rolls and reroll a single one of those dice, or if you can only use the CP reroll on a single dice dice-roll.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/19 16:25:00


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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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That really isn't unclear, BCB.

"You can re-roll any single dice."

Not seeing the problem.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
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 JohnnyHell wrote:
That really isn't unclear, BCB.

"You can re-roll any single dice."

Not seeing the problem.
Because as I fully explained in the previous post, there are two mutually exclusive but legitimate and reasonable ways of parsing the meaning of "single" in the sentence.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/19 22:59:01


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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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I don't believe the second is a legitimate interpretation, as the Stratagem wording doesn't use the term "dice roll". It uses "single dice" to mean "a die", as otherwise GW uses dice to mean a die singular or dice plural. This defines which. There's nothing in the sentence binding it to only being able to be used on a roll involving one die only.

(To further point to that stance being incorrect GW talk about using Command Reroll to help make a Charge be successful in a Warhammer Community article from back in May. Obviously impossible if you're correct, but not if GW talk about it being able to help a Charge. So you can reroll one die from a multiple-dice roll.)

Let's not complicate one of the simplest rules in the book!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/19 23:30:07


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
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 JohnnyHell wrote:
I don't believe the second is a legitimate interpretation, as the Stratagem wording doesn't use the term "dice roll". It uses "single dice" to mean "a die", as otherwise GW uses dice to mean a die singular or dice plural. This defines which. There's nothing in the sentence binding it to only being able to be used on a roll involving one die only.

(To further point to that stance being incorrect GW talk about using Command Reroll to help make a Charge be successful in a Warhammer Community article from back in May. Obviously impossible if you're correct, but not if GW talk about it being able to help a Charge. So you can reroll one die from a multiple-dice roll.)

Let's not complicate one of the simplest rules in the book!


For the record, using dice as singular is the more modern grammar.

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 JohnnyHell wrote:
I don't believe the second is a legitimate interpretation, as the Stratagem wording doesn't use the term "dice roll". It uses "single dice" to mean "a die", as otherwise GW uses dice to mean a die singular or dice plural. This defines which. There's nothing in the sentence binding it to only being able to be used on a roll involving one die only.

(To further point to that stance being incorrect GW talk about using Command Reroll to help make a Charge be successful in a Warhammer Community article from back in May. Obviously impossible if you're correct, but not if GW talk about it being able to help a Charge. So you can reroll one die from a multiple-dice roll.)

Let's not complicate one of the simplest rules in the book!
I'm not trying to complicate it for the sake of complicating it, I am pointing out that because English grammar is about as watertight as a screen door on a bread submarine that's been stabbed by Khorne until it no longer resembled a submarine, there is a legitimate and reasonable possibility for it to be a different interpretation from the one I think is correct (that you can re-roll a single die of a multi dice roll).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/20 09:06:41


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ERJAK wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
I don't believe the second is a legitimate interpretation, as the Stratagem wording doesn't use the term "dice roll". It uses "single dice" to mean "a die", as otherwise GW uses dice to mean a die singular or dice plural. This defines which. There's nothing in the sentence binding it to only being able to be used on a roll involving one die only.

(To further point to that stance being incorrect GW talk about using Command Reroll to help make a Charge be successful in a Warhammer Community article from back in May. Obviously impossible if you're correct, but not if GW talk about it being able to help a Charge. So you can reroll one die from a multiple-dice roll.)

Let's not complicate one of the simplest rules in the book!


For the record, using dice as singular is the more modern grammar.


I know; I used the separate terms in my post for clarity of argument. :-)

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
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ERJAK wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
I don't believe the second is a legitimate interpretation, as the Stratagem wording doesn't use the term "dice roll". It uses "single dice" to mean "a die", as otherwise GW uses dice to mean a die singular or dice plural. This defines which. There's nothing in the sentence binding it to only being able to be used on a roll involving one die only.

(To further point to that stance being incorrect GW talk about using Command Reroll to help make a Charge be successful in a Warhammer Community article from back in May. Obviously impossible if you're correct, but not if GW talk about it being able to help a Charge. So you can reroll one die from a multiple-dice roll.)

Let's not complicate one of the simplest rules in the book!


For the record, using dice as singular is the more modern grammar.


It is also modern example of degeneration of language. You had earlier One(1) Die, Many(>1) Dice. Simple. Nowadays Dice is used both for One(1) and Many(>1) Dice.

"Single Dice" is very ambiguous, it can be easily interpreted in following ways:
1) Single Dice = Die, so you can re-roll only one single die of however many dice you rolled.
2) Single [Set of]/[Roll of]/[Collection of]/[Whatever] Dice. Putting word 'Single' in front of 'Dice' does not make it unambiguously mean only 1 die when the word Dice can refer to both single die or multiple dice.

The original writer should just write:
1) Re-roll a Die.
2) Re-roll Dice.
Then there would be absolutely no room for debate. Writing 'Single Dice' is confusing.
The fact that Dice is used both as singular and plural forces one to use words 'single' or 'multiple' to transfer information that could already easily be contained in the word.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/21 09:54:00


 
   
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The errata clearly states "you must roll all of those dice again". It's right there in the text (regarding rolls where you roll multiple dice and add the results, e.g. charges, psy rolls, etc).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/21 21:41:20


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 Magc8Ball wrote:
The errata clearly states "you must roll all of those dice again". It's right there in the text (regarding rolls where you roll multiple dice and add the results, e.g. charges, psy rolls, etc).


Right, but that's when rerolling the dice roll. Command Points allow to reroll any single dice. Not the roll.

That's where I'm unclear.

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 JNAProductions wrote:
 Magc8Ball wrote:
The errata clearly states "you must roll all of those dice again". It's right there in the text (regarding rolls where you roll multiple dice and add the results, e.g. charges, psy rolls, etc).


Right, but that's when rerolling the dice roll. Command Points allow to reroll any single dice. Not the roll.

That's where I'm unclear.
And there you have the crux of the problem. Both interpretations are true, for a specific value of truth.

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+++++List of documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 9th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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It's says single dice. Forget the word shenanigans. Would it make sense if it said "Can re-roll any single multiple dice."

So no he can choose 1 of the 2 dice he roll and re-roll that dice but not the other.
   
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Wagguy80 wrote:
It's says single dice. Forget the word shenanigans. Would it make sense if it said "Can re-roll any single multiple dice."

So no he can choose 1 of the 2 dice he roll and re-roll that dice but not the other.
Did you not read the rest of the thread? That's one valid interpretation. Another is that you can only use it on a roll that consists of a single dice. The only clear thing about it is that it is unclear.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/27 23:07:31


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+++++List of documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 9th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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