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The FAQ for the Imperial Armour: Forces of Chaos index introduced the option for an Emperor's Children Sonic Dreadnought, thus:



Do you think a Sonic Dreadnought counts as a Helbrute for the purposes of the new Strategem which allows a Helbrute to fire twice if it didn't move?

Points for:

- The FAW does not say you replace the "Helbrute" keyword of the Helbrute.
- The Sonic Dreadnought seems, for all other intents and purposes, to be a Helbrute.

Points against:

- The stratagem refers to "Hellbrute" using the font used for unit names, not the font used for keywords. So if a Sonic Dreadnought is called "Sonic Dreadnought" and not "Helbrute", then it would seem to not be allowed.

It seems it's called a Helbrute, but allowed specific unique weapon options. I'd say have your Strategem cake and eat it, sir!

If it doesn't lose the Helbrute keyword then it is still a Helbrute.

 Yarium wrote:
If it doesn't lose the Helbrute keyword then it is still a Helbrute.

The 'Fire Frenzy' stratagem says it applies to a Helbrute (the unit) and not HELBRUTE (the keyword). It was also confirmed on Facebook (so take with a pinch of salt):

Warhammer 40,000 wrote:Hi James! The Fire Frenzy Stratagem only works on the Helbrute specifically and not anything with the Helbrute keyword (the Hellforged dreadnoughts are still crazy, just in a different and more sinister way)

It's a hellbrute, with an additional weapon option.
So yeah, it counts.

It is a HELBRUTE but not a Helbrute. It still has the keyword, but it is not named "Helbrute". Surely we should be thinking about this "Use the Helbrute datasheet" language as being an easy way for them to describe the stats and abilities and wargear of a "Sonic Dreadnought". This is how the Imperium 1 index handles some things too. Space Wolves Wolf Lords are units that you can take in a Space Wolves army, but they do not have datasheets. Instead, we're just told to use the datasheets for Captains. Surely everyone can see that what you're supposed to be doing here is writing down that you've got a "Wolf Lord" in your army, which has the characteristics and abilities and wargear of a regular Captain, and which has the SPACE WOLVES keyword instead of <CHAPTER>.

There is only one datasheet on page 33 of Index: Chaos. Its name is 'Helbrute'. Therefore it is a Helbrute as we're never told to rename the datasheet.

 Ghaz wrote:
There is only one datasheet on page 33 of Index: Chaos. Its name is 'Helbrute'. Therefore it is a Helbrute as we're never told to rename the datasheet.

I mean, this is just clearly not how everyone else is reading this kind of rule. Everyone's Space Wolves lists include "Wolf Lords", not "Captains". I am pretty sure that, so far, no tournament has rejected such a list as illegal because it includes a unit which does not exist. The meaning seems pretty clear.

So you don't have a rule that says the datasheet's name is changed?

 Ghaz wrote:
So you don't have a rule that says the datasheet's name is changed?

That's exactly what the rules mean when they say to use another unit's datasheet for a unit with a different name.

Nothing tells you the 'Helbrute' is now not a 'Helbrute'. It's a 'Helbrute'.

GW is essentially telling you to play 'counts as Sonic Doodad' using 'Helbrute' rules.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Nothing tells you the 'Helbrute' is now not a 'Helbrute'. It's a 'Helbrute'.

GW is essentially telling you to play 'counts as Sonic Doodad' using 'Helbrute' rules.

So by that logic something that affects a Captain would affect a Wolf Lord? The name has changed, no different to those index entries that link to a previous datasheet.

You're not taking a different unit. You're equipping blastmasters to a helbrute since a Sonic Dread doesn't exist now.

Rereading the exact wording up there, you quite literally are told to use a helbrute entry. So yeah..why is this in question? It's a helbrute 100% You just get fancy options for limiting it's use and making it EC and Mark of Slaanesh

 Ghaz wrote:
The 'Fire Frenzy' stratagem says it applies to a Helbrute (the unit) and not HELBRUTE (the keyword). It was also confirmed on Facebook (so take with a pinch of salt):

Warhammer 40,000 wrote:Hi James! The Fire Frenzy Stratagem only works on the Helbrute specifically and not anything with the Helbrute keyword (the Hellforged dreadnoughts are still crazy, just in a different and more sinister way)

Which would be all well and good, but NONE of the three Hellforged dreadnoughts have the HELBRUTE keyword. So it sounds like the Facebook monkey doesnt even know what hes talking about in the first place.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Nothing tells you the 'Helbrute' is now not a 'Helbrute'. It's a 'Helbrute'.

GW is essentially telling you to play 'counts as Sonic Doodad' using 'Helbrute' rules.

So by that logic something that affects a Captain would affect a Wolf Lord? The name has changed, no different to those index entries that link to a previous datasheet.

Is there anything that 'affects a Captain' to make this tangent worthwhile?

I don't see anywhere it tells you to change the Captain datasheet's name either. To use your model you call a Wolf Lord you "use the Captain datasheet". It therefore has the Captain keyword and nothing tells you to change the name, or indeed add the Wolf Lord keyword (which the mounted one does have).

Fictional wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
The 'Fire Frenzy' stratagem says it applies to a Helbrute (the unit) and not HELBRUTE (the keyword). It was also confirmed on Facebook (so take with a pinch of salt):

Warhammer 40,000 wrote:Hi James! The Fire Frenzy Stratagem only works on the Helbrute specifically and not anything with the Helbrute keyword (the Hellforged dreadnoughts are still crazy, just in a different and more sinister way)

Which would be all well and good, but NONE of the three Hellforged dreadnoughts have the HELBRUTE keyword. So it sounds like the Facebook monkey doesnt even know what hes talking about in the first place.

Maybe you should read the Imperial Armour - Forces of Chaos FAQ before you start hurling insults.

Ah, I forgot there was an FAQ. I stand corrected.

If only they would actually update the Digital books!