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Are imperium lists pulling on multiple armies too hard to beat right now? Imperium has so many options to take that i get run off the board. They can pull from so many armies and primaris i am having trouble winning. They can outshout, melee, and hold objectives better. Chaos are GOOD but i dont see any options right now to beat imperium players who are pulling from the entire army lists they have access too.

I have allot of experience with chaos this edition and last. It looks like all armies will be good at some point in 8th. Dont get me wrong - most armies will be fun to play but i dont see how anyone can beat imperium unless some major things like AM, Primaris, or aura limitations get nerfed.

Any advice?

Chaos does well when spamming heavy weapons.

Anti horde is a bit tougher, unless you rely on Berzerkers.

And most characters are built for CC.

When everyone starts getting their own codexes it will ease up a bit. None of the army specific buffs will work with each other, so people will be less likely to send in the superfriends.

This whole superfriends alliance stuff is rather, well, unbalanced. With regards to standing up to Guard + Marines + Sisters + Mechanicus + Talons + Inquisition:

Tyranids + Genestealers + Guard stands up okay
Chaos + Daemons + Renegades probably can stand up, haven't seen it though, since Renegades are Forgeworld.
Eldar + Dark Eldar + Harlequins doesn't cover its bases.

The Tau, Orks, and Necrons cannot make alliances.


Ideally, it will stop when codecies introduce actual benefits for not being a grab-bag alliance. As a side note, I think each extra sub-faction keyword after the first should cost -1CP.

Yea I feel superfriends lists will taper off soon, going off what the codex releases you get very powerful bonuses from staying mono faction in detachments.

Unfortunately it still is very cheap to have a battalion of IG conscripts, giving you lots more CP, while only reducing your main army's points by >400. :(

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Ideally, it will stop when codecies introduce actual benefits for not being a grab-bag alliance. As a side note, I think each extra sub-faction keyword after the first should cost -1CP.

What about Imperial factions that cannot actually be represented on their own? Assassins, Sisters of Silence, and Custodes require outside factions to even be playable (not to mention that they are very clearly designed to not be independent). Then there's other ones like Inquisition and Astra Telepathica, which are also meant to be supplementary (and the last thing Inquisition needs is yet another reason not to take them. The fact that using them is a handicap should be punishment enough).

Plenty of factions would require some serious restructuring for such a resolution to be reasonable.

What the real problem constantly comes down to is using cheap and easy conscript spam to add a ridiculous degree of protection and survivability to everything that should not have that degree of bubblewrap.

I agree on the superfriends-problem.
There are too many imperial sub-factions and halve of them are really not necessary. Some (tempestus, orgryns, ratlings, commissars, valkyrie and also the astra telepathica without SoS) of them should be just incorporated in an AM codex while others (Assassins, SoS, Custodes and even Knights; not sure what about the Inquisition) should be available as "imperial allies".
And then in matched plays everyone has to stick to one codex and maybe such allies.

What lists have you been using? What kind of lists are you going up against?

With my WE, I've rofl stomped most SM players I've played against (though I haven't played a parking lot yet, that'll be a fun day) and I've been going about 50:50 for games I play against IG.

Unless you're in an area where people are only taking StormRaven spam, Scion Spam, Parking Lots, etc. there are many builds that work for chaos.

Primaris are rubbish, what problems are you having with them?

I haven't lost a game yet against an Imperium army and I play chaos. I also haven't seen anyone running conscript spam or stormraven spam so maybe my area is just less douchebag heavy than other places.

I do think in general for Tourney style play TO's and even GW might want to start looking into requiring some sort of "Super battle forged" army like requiring 2+ keywords in common, and giving the 1 off sects like sisters of silence, assassins, and custodes some special rule stating that they adopt a keyword from the imperial faction taking them or something to make them useable. But even that isn't the real problem. No ones going to complain if you take a detachment of SM and a detachment of Sisters of Battle, its the battalion of AM in non AM armies making the imperium look so strong right now. 3-5 conscript swarms backed up by a couple of commisars are just too good universally. Even with the SM codex encouraging cohesion within a detachment there is no reason not to take an AM detachment of conscripts to back it up.

I'm also not sure how you fix it easily without a wholesale change like above without making AM as a stand alone force garbage. Even upping the conscripts a couple of points would be unlikely to make anyone less keen to take it, and at a certain point you say okay I will just take a couple normal units of guard troops instead for almost as cheap. Without making the AM troops completely unusable its hard for it not be worth it for a lot of SM lists.


Edit: please note that I am not saying it is unbeatable, just that it is definitely an unfair competitive advantage similar to the stormhawk spam (That luckily has been swiftly beaten down) excepting that I don't think the solution is as easy or obvious as that one since the problem is coming from the troops slot of a major army.

Firefox1 wrote:
I agree on the superfriends-problem.
There are too many imperial sub-factions and halve of them are really not necessary. Some (tempestus, orgryns, ratlings, commissars, valkyrie and also the astra telepathica without SoS) of them should be just incorporated in an AM codex while others (Assassins, SoS, Custodes and even Knights; not sure what about the Inquisition) should be available as "imperial allies".
And then in matched plays everyone has to stick to one codex and maybe such allies.

The inquisition is basically 4 models now. All of which suck. By all means they're less an army than ever.

I play Eldar of all varieties as well as Chaos and have yet to have an issue with Imperium armies (including the new SM/GK codex).

I don't find their ability to pull from multiple sources all that damaging or difficult to deal with. I build with the idea that I'll see around 90-120 conscripts + assorted other strong options. I understand what they can field and I build to deal with it - I haven't found any issues in bringing the correct tools to deal with various soup lists.

 Fafnir wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Ideally, it will stop when codecies introduce actual benefits for not being a grab-bag alliance. As a side note, I think each extra sub-faction keyword after the first should cost -1CP.

What about Imperial factions that cannot actually be represented on their own? Assassins, Sisters of Silence, and Custodes require outside factions to even be playable (not to mention that they are very clearly designed to not be independent). Then there's other ones like Inquisition and Astra Telepathica, which are also meant to be supplementary (and the last thing Inquisition needs is yet another reason not to take them. The fact that using them is a handicap should be punishment enough).

Plenty of factions would require some serious restructuring for such a resolution to be reasonable.

What the real problem constantly comes down to is using cheap and easy conscript spam to add a ridiculous degree of protection and survivability to everything that should not have that degree of bubblewrap.

Astra Telepathica isn't really a faction. It consists of 3 units, all of which are Imperial Guard units.

Talons of the Emperor can easily be their own army with all the trappings thereof. Even assuming Jenetria Krole and Constantin Valdor don't exist anymore, there are still 2 HQ Options [Oblivion Knight-Centura and Shield-Captain], 5 Troop options [Prosecutors, Vigilators, Witchseekers, Custodians, Sentinels], and at least a few suitable heavy support options, even if you consider all the grav-tank things to have ceased functioning.

As a note, unless GW changes it, Prosecutors/Vigilators/Witchseekers are elites, not troops. .

tripchimeras wrote:
I'm also not sure how you fix it easily without a wholesale change like above without making AM as a stand alone force garbage. Even upping the conscripts a couple of points would be unlikely to make anyone less keen to take it, and at a certain point you say okay I will just take a couple normal units of guard troops instead for almost as cheap. Without making the AM troops completely unusable its hard for it not be worth it for a lot of SM lists.

The fix would actually be to update the interaction between conscripts and orders and conscripts and commisars. If you make it harder to give them orders and change how the commisar's morale ability works with them, you can bring down their power easily.