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If an infantry model with a 13 moves characteristic, moves 7in, and picks up the relic, can he then move 6 more inches, or just 2 more.

This was a heated debate, interested in everyone's thoughts on this.

The relevent clause in question:
A model with the Relic cannot embark in a TRANSPORT , leave the battlefield, or move further than 9" in any single phase for any reason

If the Model has moved 13 inches during that particular Movement Phase, has he moved further then 9 inches in any single phase?
For me, it is really a Yes / No answer.

 JinxDragon wrote:
The relevent clause in question:
A model with the Relic cannot embark in a TRANSPORT , leave the battlefield, or move further than 9" in any single phase for any reason

If the Model has moved 13 inches during that particular Movement Phase, has he moved further then 9 inches in any single phase?
For me, it is really a Yes / No answer.

And for me, that exactly how I saw it. I was actually the only one out of 8 who saw it that way.

Our TO had proposed this question to ITC, and the came back with the conclusion you get a full 13in. I disagree with that call.

Something I think that bears mentioning:
The relic movement restriction isn't because it's some kind of opposite-day version of the car from Speed. It's not literally that the relic can't theoretically be moved a long distance very quickly quickly, it's that carrying it at that speed would be impossible without damaging it.
If you were charging full-speed on a bike and tried to scoop up the relic and keep hold of it, it would inevitably get dropped, damaged, or broken.

Agreed, no one wants to be the person who breaks this thing and get their whole Chapter an exterminatus order!

This is the 'as intended' edition, I keep getting told, and the Narrative provided by the Author informs us heavily as to the intent in this situation. As the Authors describe the Relic as a fragile thing that has to be handled with so much care that people can't even 'hustle' across the battle field with the damn thing, and made rules attempting to limit movement speeds, we are safe to assume they intended for the person handling it to be penalized with movement. I don't believe, simply because it is easy to find a loophole to exploit, that the Authors intended for us to exploit the loophole.

This does raise an interesting question, however:
What if I move my Model 12 inches, one that has the Movement for it, into base to base contact with the Relic?

Being an analog meat sack in a skull, it isn't hard for me to conclude that such an action should be avoided because it leads to a Rule being broken... but nothing forbids me from Moving my Model 12 inches towards the Relic, nothing requires me to stop that movement outside of Base to Base contact with the Relic once I exceed 9 inches, and Picking up the Relic is an automatic matter that occurs regardless. The Moves leading up to the 'break' are all very much legal moves I have permission to make, so I can legally get into a position where I have broken a Rule....

WAIT A MOMENT!

I have a solution....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is really heavy Rule lawyering here, and doesn't fix everything, but consider this Rule quote and see where it leads you:
No model can be moved more than once in each Movement phase.


In order to pick up the Relic, the Model has to move into contact with it
The only way to show this would be to place the physical Model in contact with the Relic
Once you take your hands off the Model, confirming that it has now been Moved into that spot and is only now in Base to base contact with the Relic....
Picking it up to Move it again would be forbidden!

Doesn't stop the 12 inches into the Relic to pick it up, but the intention was to stop the Model holding the Relic from moving faster then most Units can give chase. The loophole being discussed gives the Relic holding Model a few more inches of a head start. That is unlikely to be intended without being specifically addressed, and due to how easy this loophole is to exploit it would make sense for the Authors to have written something about it. As the Model won't be able to move from the spot the Relic was prior without breaking the 'Move once' Rule under this interpretation, regardless of how many Inches it has left to move, the Unit rushing behind still has a chance to catch up as intended!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can we change the Poll to add:
The Model may not move further after picking up the Relic.
And:
Change my answer from 2 to 0

Updated poll, good explanation!

I think the model with the relic gets its remaining movement distance as long it is not more than 9". Reason: The 9" limitation is for A model with the Relic. Before the model picks the relic up it is not A model with the Relic.

 JinxDragon wrote:
In order to pick up the Relic, the Model has to move into contact with it
The only way to show this would be to place the physical Model in contact with the Relic
Once you take your hands off the Model, confirming that it has now been Moved into that spot and is only now in Base to base contact with the Relic....
Picking it up to Move it again would be forbidden!

There is no rule that says a move consists of picking up a model and setting it down and that a move ends when hands are taken off of the model. It's routine for people to take their hands off models to measure movements around or over obstacles.

Even if that weren't the case, movement doesn't work that way, and claiming that it does would break movement. For example, a model may not be moved within an inch of enemy models. Everyone understands that to mean, correctly, that a model's movement may not take it along a path that would put it within an inch of an enemy model. However, according to your interpretation, the only way to show this would be to place the physical model more than an inch from the enemy model. Once you take your hands off the model, confirming that it has now been moved into that spot and is only now more than an inch from the enemy model, picking it up to move it again would be forbidden.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter, because a player can measure from the model's base to the relic or its base and say, "I'm moving X inches to pick up the relic, and Y inches after that." It's just like a player can measure and say, "I'm moving an inch to the platform, climbing up an inch, moving two inches across the platform, back down an inch on the other side and then an inch after that" and then put the model where it would be at the end of the move.

 Zeshi wrote:
I think the model with the relic gets its remaining movement distance as long it is not more than 9". Reason: The 9" limitation is for A model with the Relic. Before the model picks the relic up it is not A model with the Relic.

This is exactly what makes sense to me, and I was going to post the same thing before I read this. As you mentioned, I think the "with the relic" part of the rule is important here, and that the restriction doesn't apply during the first 7" inches when the model is not "with the relic."

 alienux wrote:

 Zeshi wrote:
I think the model with the relic gets its remaining movement distance as long it is not more than 9". Reason: The 9" limitation is for A model with the Relic. Before the model picks the relic up it is not A model with the Relic.

This is exactly what makes sense to me, and I was going to post the same thing before I read this. As you mentioned, I think the "with the relic" part of the rule is important here, and that the restriction doesn't apply during the first 7" inches when the model is not "with the relic."

And second, the Relic is picked up automatically. If they wanted that you can't move anymore after picking up the relic they would have worded it like "you have to end your movement in base contact with the Relic".

Until it is FAQ'd I see those two points in the RAW that the model can still move up to 9" (or their remaining movement if <9" after picking up the relic.

If you really want to get down to it, there are no instructions telling us how to go about moving a Model at all, there is just permission to Move in any direction and instructions on how to calculate the distance moved (Vertical + Horizontal, with each side measured separately when going over terrain)....

That is why I said It was very Rule Lawyery, because it required quite a bit of bending of what we have been provided to get to that conclusion. It runs on the fact that Game Workshop has always assumed that people instinctively know how to go about playing with their little plastic Models on some levels, and thus has never detailed Rules concerning something so very basic. It isn't their fault that two camps formed, and it isn't our fault they couldn't write the Measuring Movement Rule in a way that would let you literally trace the path the Model takes. Particularly in past editions, where applying this answer to the game would make it impossible to Move with Jump-Pack and Jet-Pack units (and still causes them problems to this day if you literally apply it), while the other side never had this problem to begin with.

Still, it was enough to show they want us to follow the path as close as possible.

I will also add this, I too noticed that 'end within' was turned into 'move within' in several places. Additionally, several Rules that used to contain instructions specific to how a Model must be placed at the end of a special Move... well no longer exist, but their replacement no longer contain such instructions. Some Rules that do still exist have been modified to remove their timing triggers entirely, for example and I might not remember right; The 6th Edition Relic was picked up at the End of Phase. If that particular wording still existed then we wouldn't be having this conversation at all, because it would be so obvious C, which gives more weight as to why it isn't likely to be C... outside of a strict reading attempting to prevent the situation occurring at all.

Real-time Movement is very much intended, but gaining a head-start in an already one-sided race was likely not intended either.
I take that back:
Game Workshop has always been a fan of Ball related sports, so the image of scooping up The Relic with while blazing past it on the back of a bike... so them.

No it's not them though. In fact it was either an FAQ or their social media manager who even made a remark about a supersonic flyer being able to carefully open the padlock of an ammo crate to see what's inside

First time in 40k I ever heard of moving a model twice in once movement phase. HYWPI is 9" max for any reason.

 JinxDragon wrote:
That is why I said It was very Rule Lawyery, because it required quite a bit of bending of what we have been provided to get to that conclusion. It runs on the fact that Game Workshop has always assumed that people instinctively know how to go about playing with their little plastic Models on some levels, and thus has never detailed Rules concerning something so very basic. It isn't their fault that two camps formed, and it isn't our fault they couldn't write the Measuring Movement Rule in a way that would let you literally trace the path the Model takes. Particularly in past editions, where applying this answer to the game would make it impossible to Move with Jump-Pack and Jet-Pack units (and still causes them problems to this day if you literally apply it), while the other side never had this problem to begin with.

Have two camps actually formed, though? You presented an offbeat reading of the rules that breaks movement in order to fix something that probably isn't broken to begin with.

 JinxDragon wrote:
Game Workshop has always been a fan of Ball related sports, so the image of scooping up The Relic with while blazing past it on the back of a bike... so them.

The relic can only be picked up by units with the INFANTRY keyword.

Minor mistake, Imagine a Jet-Pack wielding Model zooming past and scooping it up then.
As for the two camps, unless I had conversations with figments of my imagination in private messages and around other forums.... yeah.


Some people believed you picked up the Model and then placed it in the final location, using the Rules for measuring in a straight line between "bases" to determine if it had moved outside the Maximum Move distance. A larger group of people believed that you followed the path the Model made, and thus it was able to move in curves and around corners. Regardless which side of the debate you where on, both had issues when it came to certain interaction with Rules. Example for Pick up and Place - You where unable to go around the corner of an Impassable Building without it taking two turns, one to move an inch left and then to start moving forward again. Example for the Pathing - all the Rules allowing one to move over Models and Terrain, they would now require you to follow the ballistic path which often made a 6 inch move over Terrain impossible.

Neither side had any real problem playing with each other, we both ignored the problems caused by our own interpretation, but... yeah; no one saw the third option of Horizontal + Vertical = total movement.
That doesn't follow the path of the Model, try walking up the slope of a Hill with that Rule, nor a straight line between End and Start points....

 JinxDragon wrote:
Minor mistake, Imagine a Jet-Pack wielding Model zooming past and scooping it up then.
As for the two camps, unless I had conversations with figments of my imagination in private messages and around other forums.... yeah.


Some people believed you picked up the Model and then placed it in the final location, using the Rules for measuring in a straight line between "bases" to determine if it had moved outside the Maximum Move distance. A larger group of people believed that you followed the path the Model made, and thus it was able to move in curves and around corners. Regardless which side of the debate you where on, both had issues when it came to certain interaction with Rules. Example for Pick up and Place - You where unable to go around the corner of an Impassable Building without it taking two turns, one to move an inch left and then to start moving forward again. Example for the Pathing - all the Rules allowing one to move over Models and Terrain, they would now require you to follow the ballistic path which often made a 6 inch move over Terrain impossible.

Neither side had any real problem playing with each other, we both ignored the problems caused by our own interpretation, but... yeah; no one saw the third option of Horizontal + Vertical = total movement.
That doesn't follow the path of the Model, try walking up the slope of a Hill with that Rule, nor a straight line between End and Start points....

St. Celestine can move the relic 18" a turn due to the movement AoF. (which is it's own thread of rules debating whether or not something that takes place 'at the start of your turn' is before or during your movement phase.

What if a Terminator moves 3", picks it up, then his squad teleports 36" to a waiting Teleport Homer?

You can't move by any reason more than 9" with the relic.

Edit: And an emergency teleport is instead of moving.

 Zeshi wrote:
You can't move by any reason more than 9" with the relic.

Edit: And an emergency teleport is instead of moving.

Good catch. So the Termie has it already at start of Movement Phase, and teleports. They don't 'move', they are removed and redeployed. ;-)

FWIW I agree intent of the mission is that this a no, Capture The Flag is no fun if someone can teleport. But the Terminators aren't moving, by the rules.

You could argue they leave the battlefield and are set up again. This is also against the rule but tbh this needs a FAQ asap.

 Zeshi wrote:
You could argue they leave the battlefield and are set up again. This is also against the rule but tbh this needs a FAQ asap.

No you're right, removed disallows it. Good spot!

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Zeshi wrote:
You could argue they leave the battlefield and are set up again. This is also against the rule but tbh this needs a FAQ asap.

No you're right, removed disallows it. Good spot!

Do we know if Celestine follows this same rule? Someone told me that she just get placed else where on the battlefield and never really dies/becomes removed. Definitely a good catch if she's worded similar or the same.

EDIT: Just read her rules, she is NOT removed from the battlefield, holy crap that is powerful in that mission.