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I'm a little confused about the wording for using pistols relating to close combat. The rules state that pistols "can even be used in melee..." But am I correct in this does NOT actually mean melee as in the "fight phase" but rather that a unit engaged in close combat (e.g. the unit has models is within 1" of an enemy unit/models) can still use a pistol for a shooting attack on their OWN shooting turn.

In other words, models with pistols don't use the pistol during the fight phase as a melee weapon, but rather use it during the shooting phase to fire (most likely) at the enemy unit they are engaged in CC combat with. Correct?

Correct. A unit can shoot their pistols while within 1" of an enemy unit in their own Shooting Phase.

The bold paragraphs on that page are all fluffy-descriptions; the actual rules are separated.

Models in a close combat are not all standing around while the test of the army moves, and then shoots where the guys in the combat with pistols suddly spring into action and shoot as well, the wait for any chargers to run in before fighting 1-by-1 in turn; those ruruleand phases are all an abstraction of everything happening pretty much at once but separated out for ease of play. This is one of the things I like about battletech's igougo breakdown and initiative system: move phase is the loser moving his units first with the winner reacting to that movement, 1 unit at a time and then shooting is the winner first and the lose second.

i like Battle Tech's system a lot Shooting results are also simultaneous in battle tech, which I think would be interesting to consider for 40k.

So you still get a cover save from Pistols in CC correct?
As you are shooting them in the Shooting Phase as the cover rule specifies no cover saves in the Fight phase.

And what about CSM's (Slaanesh, I think) that can shoot after they die. If they die in the Fight Phase, they can shoot thier weapons but are not restricted by the 'cannot shoot if within 1" rule because it is not the shooting phase. So when they die in CC they can shoot their heavy weapons at any target beyond 1". Is that right?

JMichael wrote:
So you still get a cover save from Pistols in CC correct?

Correct insofar as they get the bonus to their save due to cover. "Cover saves" aren't a thing anymore.

And what about CSM's (Slaanesh, I think) that can shoot after they die. If they die in the Fight Phase, they can shoot thier weapons but are not restricted by the 'cannot shoot if within 1" rule because it is not the shooting phase. So when they die in CC they can shoot their heavy weapons at any target beyond 1". Is that right?

They aren't restricted because the rule gives them a special exception. Keep in mind that due to the wording of the rules, if they shoot at something after dying in the fight phase, the enemy doesn't get a cover bonus because it's the fight phase even if they shoot a target far away.

Last bit would only matter if the model was using a boltgun or bolt pistol(or grenades) anyway, all 3 sonic weapons already ignore cover.

It matters mainly for grenades vs IMPERIUM, because Death to the False Emperor lets a grenade get 6 hit rolls, then if you roll 6 6's, you get another 6D6 hit rolls, which is super silly.

How's that now?

Death to the false Emperor only generates 1 extra attack for each 6+ to hit. You still have to roll the d6 for the frag grenade.

So you are looking at a need to roll 7d6 and have each one come out as a 6 just to generate 6d6 more attacks(which cannot generate further) which is a 1:279,936 chance of happening.

So few things:

1) DttFE only happens in Melee

2) Emperor's Children can only use their Melee weapons or shoot their Pistols within 1" of an enemy unit when Music of the Apocalypse triggers. So no Grenades or any other non-pistol weapon for shooting,

3) Emperor's Children trigger DttFE on a 5 or a 6

4) DttFE DOES work on Pistol attacks made in the Fight phase so make full use of that Plasma Pistol on your Champ

BomBomHotdog wrote:
So few things:

1) DttFE only happens in Melee

2) Emperor's Children can only use their Melee weapons or shoot their Pistols within 1" of an enemy unit when Music of the Apocalypse triggers. So no Grenades or any other non-pistol weapon for shooting,

3) Emperor's Children trigger DttFE on a 5 or a 6

4) DttFE DOES work on Pistol attacks made in the Fight phase so make full use of that Plasma Pistol on your Champ

Quite a long wrong here.

1) DttFE happens in the Fight phase, not from just fighting.

2) This is also not true. "...after the attacking unit has finished making all its attacks, the slain model can make a shooting attack with one of its ranged weapons, or throw a grenade, even if the model’s unit is within 1" of the enemy." So you can throw a grenade just fine.

3) Emperor's Children might, but generic Noise Marines from other legions don't.

4) You don't make Pistol attacks in the Fight phase and you never have. These are done in the shooting phase where DttFw doesn't apply.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Keep in mind that due to the wording of the rules, if they shoot at something after dying in the fight phase, the enemy doesn't get a cover bonus because it's the fight phase even if they shoot a target far away.

I never thought about this. Definitely useful for SfD.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Quite a long wrong here.

1) DttFE happens in the Fight phase, not from just fighting.

2) This is also not true. "...after the attacking unit has finished making all its attacks, the slain model can make a shooting attack with one of its ranged weapons, or throw a grenade, even if the model’s unit is within 1" of the enemy." So you can throw a grenade just fine.

3) Emperor's Children might, but generic Noise Marines from other legions don't.

4) You don't make Pistol attacks in the Fight phase and you never have. These are done in the shooting phase where DttFw doesn't apply.

1) that's actually what I meant. I should of been more specific

2) Q: If a Noise Marine is slain whilst its unit is within 1" of an enemy unit, can he use his Music of the Apocalypse ability to shoot the unit that is within 1"?
A: Yes, but only with a Pistol.

Although you could argue that if you shoot at a different unit (that's not in 1") you can shoot which ever gun you want or a Grenade, which you could have all slain models use as well. Since this thread is primarily about pistols and combat I framed it in that particular scenario.

3) Yup, just noting it.

4) Q: If a Noise Marine is slain in the Fight phase, and he uses his Music of the Apocalypse ability to shoot an Imperium unit and subsequently rolls a 6+ to hit, does the Death to the False Emperor ability then grant him an extra attack with that weapon, even though it’s a ranged weapon?
A: Yes. In this situation, make an extra hit roll against the target on a hit roll of 6+.

again wasn't specific enough. was writing my original post with less time then I thought I had.

the Q and A are taken from the Chaos Index. They really should move relevant items to the CSM Codex FAQ/Errata list

 BaconCatBug wrote:

JMichael wrote:
So you still get a cover save from Pistols in CC correct?

Correct insofar as they get the bonus to their save due to cover. "Cover saves" aren't a thing anymore.

And what about CSM's (Slaanesh, I think) that can shoot after they die. If they die in the Fight Phase, they can shoot thier weapons but are not restricted by the 'cannot shoot if within 1" rule because it is not the shooting phase. So when they die in CC they can shoot their heavy weapons at any target beyond 1". Is that right?

They aren't restricted because the rule gives them a special exception. Keep in mind that due to the wording of the rules, if they shoot at something after dying in the fight phase, the enemy doesn't get a cover bonus because it's the fight phase even if they shoot a target far away.

...totally not the intent of the rule at all. The line "Units gain no benefit from cover in the Fight Phase" is clearly intended to refer to close combat, NOT to apply against a special ability shooting attack. Granted, they should have put the usual "as if it were the Shoiting Phase" wording but they didnt. It doesn't mean your bullets now magically pass through cover.

Intent is completely unknown in this instance: there are very few to nearly unique abilities to shoot while in the fight phase. On top of that it is not like a group of combatants fighting in a forrest or ruins are going to be taking cover from ranged attacks(which requires standing still behind something solid) which is part of why cover should never count vs melee anyways. Targeting a model not in combat with anyone and refusing benefits of cover is a bit "gamey" but shooting point blank at the guy who is stabbing you. Is not going to have him benefiting from any cover.

The rules just do not allow that complexity.

But surely they don't allow sniping across the field and ignoring cover as was being suggested above?

The Rules easily could, and that is the entire reason for a 'Does not allow for that Complexity...' type answer:
The Authors couldn't design a Rule for this situation without it being too Complex, so they Restricted Cover Saves for the entire Phase and called it a day.

 Mezmorki wrote:
i like Battle Tech's system a lot Shooting results are also simultaneous in battle tech, which I think would be interesting to consider for 40k.

There's only been a hundred billion people saying this since the dawn of time, so I'm sure GW will take notice any day now.