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Had a situation come up, that despite seeming clear on the subject, someone that the group trusts stated that ITC ruled it in an odd way.

In the Shooting Phase, Step 2 seems to say that "the shooting model" needs to be able to see the target in order to shoot at it.

The situation was an approximate 10 man unit where most of the bodies were behind a tall LoS blocking sold wall.

The odd ruling was that only ONE model in the unit can the target and then ALL models in the unit can shoot it.

This seems to be a ruling against the wording of Step 2 of the BRB.

So, which is it?

Few critical words missing from your explanation that can swing this either way.

Let's say I have unit A and you have unit B. If all models in unit A can see even just 1 model of unit B, then all models in unit A can shoot and the casualties will be taken from all of unit B.

If, however, only 1 model from unit A can see one or more models from unit B, but the rest of unit A can't see unit B, then only 1 model from unit A can shoot at unit B.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know what... looking carefully at the Shooting Phase rules, I might be wrong and just thinking of the old system! The only spot where being visible matters is at Step 2 of the BRB, but that's just for choosing targets, and it only requires a single model from the unit to see the opposing unit. After that, Line of Sight isn't required at all! So I guess a whole unit can shoot at another whole unit even if only 2 models can see each other!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ah, but technically, each model chooses its targets... so yeah, nvm, it is as I first said.

No, every model needs to trace LOS to be able to shoot. Only models with LOS to the selected target can fire.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
No, every model needs to trace LOS to be able to shoot. Only models with LOS to the selected target can fire.

That is what I thought and had argued for. But the "ITC ruled it this way" argument held more weight.

 Draco765 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
No, every model needs to trace LOS to be able to shoot. Only models with LOS to the selected target can fire.

That is what I thought and had argued for. But the "ITC ruled it this way" argument held more weight.

It's unlikely they'd rule that things can shoot things they can't see. Your mate is telling tall tales. ;-) It's so easy to get LOS in 8th it's not even worth trying to glean this kind of advantage!

 Draco765 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
No, every model needs to trace LOS to be able to shoot. Only models with LOS to the selected target can fire.

That is what I thought and had argued for. But the "ITC ruled it this way" argument held more weight.

ICT should only hold more weight if you're on an ITC toernament or practicing for one

To be fair, it is something I also noticed within the Rules:- They refer to 'Shooting Model' within a Steps prior to individual Models carrying out actions independent of their Unit!
It still bothers me a little, to be honest, because it can cause some strange things to occur when we apply strict 'Rule Lawyer' type of thinking to the situation.

For Example:-
Due to the fact the Step 2 requires us to measure Line of Sight from the 'Shooting Model,' we need to determine exactly what a Shooting Model is prior or we blue screen
Step 1 informs us that Unless otherwise stated, each model in the unit attacks with all of the ranged weapons it is armed with
We are provided with instructions in a prior Step, and Sequences are meant to flow sequentially, that clearly define 'Shooting Models' to include all Models armed with Ranged Weapons.

This does not cause any problems for wet-meaty-computers are very good at analog thinking and I even see that the Authors where trying to fix this sort of problem. By looking through the rest of the instructions, we simply draw the conclusion that anything without Line of Sight or Range can not be a Shooting Model as it will violate the rest of the Sequence. We have made the argument that Range and Line of Sight requirements are 'otherwise stated,' even though nothing has actually stated that point, simply to get the game to work. This is the clear intent when the Authors created an object called 'Shooting Model,' they wanted us to treat each Model in the Unit independently of the others when determining things like Line of Sight and Range.

Yet.... we are not doing that right now, we are computing as if we are digital thinkers, so now add this instruction to those you are compiling:
In order to target an enemy unit,
a model from that unit must be within
the Range of the weapon being used (as
listed on its profile) and be visible to the
shooting model.

Having determined that Shooting Model means each Model in the Unit, and in a situation where a single Model from said Unit lacks Line of Sight... can the Enemy Unit even be Targeted?
Honestly - Glad we have analog brains, this really is a non-issue....

How Can Mirrors Be Real If Our Eyes Aren't Real

It's unbelievable how some people approach the 8th edition rules.

HIWPI:
Tell him to show you the rule or at least his interpretation in a document published by GW. If you had agreed to play by ITC rules, tell him to show you the ITC rule that overrides GWs rule. If he insists on using ITC rules even though you hadn't agreed to it, I'd probably let him get away with it if he can show me the ITC rule supporting his interpretation.

But without proof? No.

Let me guess - it was HIS unit that was going to benefit from it, AND he probably failed to point out his interpretation of those rules when you set up your models / shot with a unit of yours.

*Rips eyes out of head*
How dare these things lie to me, convincing me they where real!

nekooni wrote:
How Can Mirrors Be Real If Our Eyes Aren't Real

It's unbelievable how some people approach the 8th edition rules.

HIWPI:
Tell him to show you the rule or at least his interpretation in a document published by GW. If you had agreed to play by ITC rules, tell him to show you the ITC rule that overrides GWs rule. If he insists on using ITC rules even though you hadn't agreed to it, I'd probably let him get away with it if he can show me the ITC rule supporting his interpretation.

But without proof? No.

Let me guess - it was HIS unit that was going to benefit from it, AND he probably failed to point out his interpretation of those rules when you set up your models / shot with a unit of yours.

The first time this came up was in a causal game, and yes it was the other guy who would benefit from his hiding models, I showed him the Step 2 in the BRB and he resolved only the models with line of site's shooting attacks.

The next time it came up was the next weekend when the store was holding and event using the ITC rules (we don't submit the event to ITC, just follow the rules), this situation was asked about before the event started, and the guy (not the original person who argued with me the last weekend) who goes to more actual ITC events than any of us in the store responded with the odd ruling.

Now, I was not there at the time, but I talked to the guy who was the TO for the day when I asked how the event went, he agreed with me on Step 2 being correct for future events.

Nothing in the ITC has anything about what this guy is talking about. Unless my eyes are deceiving me.

This was not an ITC ruling. Possibly a judge made that ruling in a particular case but that means absolutely nothing.

OK

A unit of 10 tac marines with one heavy weapon, one special weapon, and a sergeant with a plasma pistol.

If this above stated unit has 9 guys behind a wall and only one model can see the unit in which the player wants to shoot, then the only one that can shoot them is the shooting model that has line of sight, and is within range of the gun he is shooting.

The rest cannot shoot at that target unit because they , "the 9" lack a fundamental caveat of having a target model visible to them to shoot.

In the basic rule book, page 179, under paragraph which is numbered 2. Choosing targets. It explains it. Clearly.

Further read the column to the right under the heading of fast dice rolling.

I quote. " The rules for resolving attacks, (pg181) have been written assuming you will make them one at a time." end quote.

So in order to fire with all the ranged weapons the unit is carrying they have to see the target (individually) to shoot, be in range. Thats it. simple right.