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I could be reading this completely wrong here so please do correct me if I am or if it's been FAQd already (FWs link to the FAQ is apparently no longer on the website). 1) Move and fire means you treat ALL of the squads weapons as assault weapons. 2) Grenades are a type of weapon. 3) A model can shoot all of its weapons or all of its pistols or one model may choose to throw a grenade. 4) Grenades become assault not grenade under Move and Fire based on the wording of the rule.

If all of that is correct, at 6" a 50pt unit gets 10 bs4+ st3 shots, 10d6 bs4+ st3 shots and 10 bs4+ st6 ap-1 Dd3 shots when given this order. Or a 70pt unit has them all at bs3+. So the opponent cannot ignore those Infantry squads dropping alongside the command squads. They can't make it on the turn they drop, but next turn they almost certainly can. If that's all directed at an opponents unit who has had strafing run put on them by an Officer of the fleet it's even scarier.

I'm sure this must have been caught and FAQd right? If not I could see it being a devastating tactic, it gets more st3 shots on average then FRFSRF and the 10 Kraks on top of that, and is even further effective when compared to FRFSRF if there are any weapon upgrades (as there would be less lasguns). You can't kill ALL those 50pt units AND the Plasma Command Squads and Plasma Vet squads in time surely?

A Vet flamer unit would be devastating with this order.

I want to believe this is not possible RAW, but can't see an issue with it.

If it works the way stated above, what would be the best strategies to use with it?

Its a bug. Its not the the FW FAQ (Linked in the sticky at the top of YMDC).

Raise it as an issue then ignore it. Strategies.. silly.

Haha yeh it would be pure cheese and TFG tactics outside of extreme competitive play tbf.
Thanks for the link Captain Bob.

On a side note - is that the Romanian flag on my post? I'm nowhere near Romania!

Poly Ranger wrote:
Haha yeh it would be pure cheese and TFG tactics outside of extreme competitive play tbf.
Thanks for the link Captain Bob.

On a side note - is that the Romanian flag on my post? I'm nowhere near Romania!

It is a Dutch flag. I have one too, allthough I an not in Holland.

Mines blue, yellow and red vertically on my 1st post (Romanian?) and Dutch on my second (the 2nd one makes sense as I'm using Netherlands server for my VPN so I can access Google in China). Weird.

Mine alternates between british and american seemingly at random.

I was actually just talking about this on another forum. They think it's an attempt at replicating "Forwards for the Emperor", and if you accept that as the intent, it's easy enough for you to limit the impact with a little house rule tweaking. But RAW, you're absolutely right.

Pretty sure they still have 3 damage plasmaguns, too, though I believe the pistols were FAQd. It sucks because I absolutely love the Elysians but I can't actually play them locally because of how absolutely broken they are.

Maybe I am missing something here, but is there a rule that says you can fire all of your assault weapons? Otherwise you are still bound by any shooting rules, which means lasgun, heavy weapon, special weapon, (or laspistol), and a grenade per unit.

Both this and the 3 damage plasma guns seem like obvious rules mistakes that I would never try to force on someone, and I often play with Elysians.

These games aren't rules-tight so you have to go with the intent rather than the strictly written meaning, and it seems a little silly to claim Elysian plasma guns were meant to be 50% better than everyone else's, that this rule was meant to allow you to throw 20 grenades, etc. That goes extra for FW rules, which generally speaking seem a little less carefully checked - does the Marauder Bomber still have infinite ammo for its Hellstrike Missiles, of which you can take eight, for instance? They're obviously meant to be once per game weapons, but that's not how the rules are written...

Frankly if I were running a serious event I would consider outright banning FW or at least issuing my own FAQ document for their books. There are too many goofy mistakes and "just plain better" options - in friendly games you can play them with the intended interpretations and there's no trouble, but by strict RAW it's a bit of a joke.

General Hobbs wrote:

Maybe I am missing something here, but is there a rule that says you can fire all of your assault weapons? Otherwise you are still bound by any shooting rules, which means lasgun, heavy weapon, special weapon, (or laspistol), and a grenade per unit.

You can either fire all of your weapons or all of your pistols. If you were armed, for example, with 3 boltguns, you could fire all of them at once.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kingsley wrote:
Both this and the 3 damage plasma guns seem like obvious rules mistakes that I would never try to force on someone, and I often play with Elysians.

These games aren't rules-tight so you have to go with the intent rather than the strictly written meaning, and it seems a little silly to claim Elysian plasma guns were meant to be 50% better than everyone else's, that this rule was meant to allow you to throw 20 grenades, etc. That goes extra for FW rules, which generally speaking seem a little less carefully checked - does the Marauder Bomber still have infinite ammo for its Hellstrike Missiles, of which you can take eight, for instance? They're obviously meant to be once per game weapons, but that's not how the rules are written...

Frankly if I were running a serious event I would consider outright banning FW or at least issuing my own FAQ document for their books. There are too many goofy mistakes and "just plain better" options - in friendly games you can play them with the intended interpretations and there's no trouble, but by strict RAW it's a bit of a joke.

I agree with you that in this edition FW has made more errors than GW. In past editions I would have said it was the other way around.
I don't think the Maurauder Destroyer is a mistake though - at 20pts a missile, being pretty much exactly the same stats (minus the 2d6 discard the lowest) and same price as a missile launcher, that also isnt one shot, it would be insane for them to cost that much. I think GW and FW have deliberately made missiles able to fire multiple times and costed the appropriately.
It could all be avoided in a tournament if the TO just uses common sense.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lemondish wrote:
I was actually just talking about this on another forum. They think it's an attempt at replicating "Forwards for the Emperor", and if you accept that as the intent, it's easy enough for you to limit the impact with a little house rule tweaking. But RAW, you're absolutely right.

Pretty sure they still have 3 damage plasmaguns, too, though I believe the pistols were FAQd. It sucks because I absolutely love the Elysians but I can't actually play them locally because of how absolutely broken they are.

I agree. Personally I think Elysians are the most powerful army out there.
All non character infantry needs to be increased by a point. Officers of the Fleet need to be at least 40 if not 50 points if keeping that rule that allows all Elysians to re roll 1s to hit on top of gaining Ariel Drop. Plasma Guns need to be increased to at least 10pts for ALL Guard. That would help bring Elysians down to top tier rather than atmosphere.

I tend to agree that, for now, FW rules just shouldn't be legal for matched play.

FW has never, and will never, spent much time on its rules. The current indexes have arguably been the worst. They were clearly rushed out with barely a spellcheck. Loads of the units flat out could not be used (like the marine superheavies you couldn't legally field with less than 3 other superheavies, or the tau plane that couldn't fire its guns).

Other units follow the usual FW practice of being either total trash or over the top awesomeness. Inevitably, when you produce an index with ~20 new untested SM characters, weeks before the codex drops, you get outliers like Lias Isadon and a load of others that nobody ever looks at.

This sort of thing might be ok if FW followed GW's new policy of quick updates, but they don't seem to be. So FW stuff will continue to harm the game until they get round to bringing out new £50 books to sell us - which will themselves probably contain a load of broken crap too.

I consider myself to be a pretty hardcore tournament player. I won the last two tournaments I entered. I want people to win tournaments because they are good players, not because they are exploiting some mistake in rules that were never checked.

I realise that picking a tournament army has always been about picking the most effective units. It's one thing to pick a unit that's good at its job, or maybe units with good synergy between them. It's quite another to have an army that is hyper-effective because the rules writers didn't understand - or care - what they were doing.

 Kingsley wrote:
Both this and the 3 damage plasma guns seem like obvious rules mistakes that I would never try to force on someone, and I often play with Elysians.

These games aren't rules-tight so you have to go with the intent rather than the strictly written meaning, and it seems a little silly to claim Elysian plasma guns were meant to be 50% better than everyone else's, that this rule was meant to allow you to throw 20 grenades, etc. That goes extra for FW rules, which generally speaking seem a little less carefully checked - does the Marauder Bomber still have infinite ammo for its Hellstrike Missiles, of which you can take eight, for instance? They're obviously meant to be once per game weapons, but that's not how the rules are written...

Frankly if I were running a serious event I would consider outright banning FW or at least issuing my own FAQ document for their books. There are too many goofy mistakes and "just plain better" options - in friendly games you can play them with the intended interpretations and there's no trouble, but by strict RAW it's a bit of a joke.

I agree with this. The models are awesome and adds a lot to the game, but ForgeWorlds rules are really a low-effort job, with way too many errors. Like the Ork kill-kannon being Heavy D6 in the index, but a similar named weapon being Heavy6 in th Imperial Armour book. Happily this error was FAQed, but it suggests that FW has not had privileged access to GW's masters, but has been manually retyping GW statlines into their own rules publications.

Can I chime in now and say I think this rule is being mis-read

The order is -

Move and Fire!
Any INFANTRY models in the ordered unit count their weapons as being Assault weapons until the end of the turn.

So, what is an assault weapon - lets check the BRB

ASSAULT
Assault weapons fire so rapidly or indiscriminately that they can be shot from the hip as warriors dash forwards into combat.
A model with an Assault weapon can fire it even if it Advanced earlier that turn. If it does so, you must subtract 1 from any hit rolls made when firing that weapon this turn.

So, while your weapons count as assault weapons – they never stop being grenades or pistols or anything else. You simply get the ability to move including advance and still shoot with the penalty. You don't change the type (and thus allow you to fire every weapon carried).

 Massaen wrote:
Can I chime in now and say I think this rule is being mis-read

The order is -

Move and Fire!
Any INFANTRY models in the ordered unit count their weapons as being Assault weapons until the end of the turn.

So, what is an assault weapon - lets check the BRB

ASSAULT
Assault weapons fire so rapidly or indiscriminately that they can be shot from the hip as warriors dash forwards into combat.
A model with an Assault weapon can fire it even if it Advanced earlier that turn. If it does so, you must subtract 1 from any hit rolls made when firing that weapon this turn.

So, while your weapons count as assault weapons – they never stop being grenades or pistols or anything else. You simply get the ability to move including advance and still shoot with the penalty. You don't change the type (and thus allow you to fire every weapon carried).

Well this is the whole deal, they change from the pistol and grenade type, to the assault type weapon, removing the restrictions placed on those weapons due to their types. Meaning you can move and shoot everything. So you can shoot your pistol as its now a pistol in name only, and everyone can throw all their grenades all while also shooting their main weapons.

Their dakka goes up tremendously with this order.

I see what you are saying and how you read it like that, but the only place in a weapons profile that it talks about assault etc is in weapon type. So they count as being assault weapons, not pistols etc.

Its terribly worded and ambiguous at best, at worst hilariously broken

They never stop being pistol type though - or grenade type for that matter.

They count their weapons as assault weapons - that's it.

Assault tells you what that means. They never stop being the other types though. You can infer they replace it but that's all it is

Assault type weapons are weapons with the assault type, pistol type are weapons with the pistol type.

If you are counting their weapons as being assault, then they get the assault weapon type?

as i said its ambiguous and can easily be interpreted either way

I dont think there is anything ambigious about the rule. If the grenades counts as being assault, then all of the models can use them in the shooting phase, as if they were assault weapons.

Now clearly that is an unintended oversight because of how broken that is, but I don't see any ambiguity about it.

They dont stop being grenades as well though - which have a limit.

Of course they stop being grenades, the same way dark lances on vehicles stop being heavy weapons.

Just get over the fact, that FW screwed up big time.

 Massaen wrote:
They dont stop being grenades as well though - which have a limit.

But they COUNT as being assault weapons. By your reasoning Elysians should be able to advance and fire rapid fire, because they "don't stop being rapid-fire weapons", even when they count as assault weapons. That would be weird, though.

pismakron wrote:
I dont think there is anything ambigious about the rule. If the grenades counts as being assault, then all of the models can use them in the shooting phase, as if they were assault weapons.

Now clearly that is an unintended oversight because of how broken that is, but I don't see any ambiguity about it.

And then your opponent takes a rolled up newspaper and hits you with it until you stop being a dumbass.

So either way its broken, if they keep their weapon types and dont actually change to assault weapons, you can RF and advance, but if they do then you can shoot everything....

In defense of FW, they had little to no warning about 8th ed from the sounds of things and they have been dealing with the death of Alan Bligh as well.

I think its very clear. All their weapons count as being assault. I take this to mean it overrides the stock profile and changes the weapon from pistol/grenade/rapid fire/ to assault which literally means RAW they can shoot all of them. However I think that is CLEARLY not the intent and is purely a result of horrible rules writing that for some reason is taking them forever to correct. I am not sure how hard it is to send out a message saying "Ooops yeah we messed up" but apparently is a big deal for them.

I would never play it as the obviously overpowered version and would outright refuse a game against someone who insisted on having it be that way even if it is clearly RAW its clearly not RAI. In my opinion that is.

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
In defense of FW, they had little to no warning about 8th ed from the sounds of things and they have been dealing with the death of Alan Bligh as well.

Losing Alan has thrown those guys into chaos, yeah. They delayed the next 30k book by a year because of it, since the dude was the master behind 30k

Am I the only one that doesn't think this is that OP?

I mean you still have to get all your guys within 6" for this to work so out of drop range. And guard blow away in a stiff breeze. Still have to roll to hit on 4s or 3s(Veterans).

I mean I guess you could use Valkyries to get everyone there but that is rather expensive.