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As the season is coming up when some of the local shops are going to be having holiday tournaments and the like, and trying to come up with a decent list. Luckily, not many people around here run a ton of hoard spam, but there are a fair number of people who rely heavily on termies for the 2+ armor save, so I'm trying to come up with something that has some decent anti-personnel ability for taking out normal infantry models, but also has the gunpower to drop termies.
Outrider Detachment
HQ Archon [58 pts]
w/ agonizer and splinter pistol
Succubus {Hypex} [72 pts]
w/ Archite glaive and splinter pistol
Troop
10 Wyches {Adrenalight} [120 pts]
1x Agonizer, Blast Pistol, and PGL, 1x Hydra Guantlets, 1x Razorflails, 1x Shardnet and Impaler, 6x splinter pistol and Hektarii blade
Are your HQs on foot? I guess those raiders are for trueborn and the wyches.
If you give the +2M to the succubus she can back up the vehicles but in your list they look like two taxes, especially the archon.
I'd cut the scourges to add a venom for the HQs, maybe even a raider with 5 incubi or wyches, but you need to reduce the hellions or the reavers to do so.
Why not splitting the reavers into two units of 6 bikes?
You don't have anywhere near enough Anti-Tank in that list, plus Reavers are far too expensive for what they do given you can have a unit of Kabalite warriors in a Venom for less than a unit of 6 Reavers. Said unit will be far more useful in general and won't die the second Plasma Guns look at it funny. I would just drop them and take more Ravagers.
Also I wouldn't bother with Razorflails or Shardnet and Impaler. Either take more Hydra Gauntlets or take the regular Blades.
Dissies are awesome but remember you are always losing a Dark Lance to take one plus you are spending 40 more points.
The main way to counter Terminators as Dark Eldar is the heavy use of Splinter weaponry. You literally drown your opponent in so many saves they can't hope to make them all.
I would strongly consider something like this instead:
The HQ units join the smaller Kabalite squad in a Raider, and move up to support the Wyches. The smaller Kabalite units in Venoms will grab objectives and throw Splinter Fire towards Termies. Double Cannon sounds points inefficient but if you are fighting Imperium you WILL be running up against Melta so the extra range will help you with skirting just outside of a Meltagun's 18" effective threat range without losing any firepower. The Razorwing Flocks are there to act as chaff as you will never finish deploying first against a Terminator army and also be disruptive and a general nuisance via screening and clogging up charge and firing lanes as well as taking overwatch fire.
When using the Wyches you want to charge them so that they come within 1" of as many units as you can (yes even vehicles). The reason being is that they will HAVE to Pile-in towards the Wyches and will have to roll off against you in order to fall back. Even if they win the roll off, that unit just lost an entire turn of shooting unless it has fly or is an Ultrasmurf unit with Chapter Tactics (though in the latter case, why are you even friends with them for using that cheese?).
As for drugs I would do the following in order of priority with the picks that I strongly recommend in bold:
Adrenalight is the best drug for dedicated assault units, Grave Lotus second. If you think you can get Turn 1/2 charges then Hypex and/or Serpentin is going to give you more mileage. If you can get then stuck into combat then Painbringer isn't bad for Wyches and Succubus. T4 and 6+/4++/6+++ for the Wyches or Succubus in close combat is awesome.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/10 12:25:34
DorkKnightRahal wrote:You don't have anywhere near enough Anti-Tank in that list, plus Reavers are far too expensive for what they do given you can have a unit of Kabalite warriors in a Venom for less than a unit of 6 Reavers. Said unit will be far more useful in general and won't die the second Plasma Guns look at it funny. I would just drop them and take more Ravagers.
Also I wouldn't bother with Razorflails or Shardnet and Impaler. Either take more Hydra Gauntlets or take the regular Blades.
Dissies are awesome but remember you are always losing a Dark Lance to take one plus you are spending 40 more points.
The main way to counter Terminators as Dark Eldar is the heavy use of Splinter weaponry. You literally drown your opponent in so many saves they can't hope to make them all.
I would strongly consider something like this instead:
The HQ units join the smaller Kabalite squad in a Raider, and move up to support the Wyches. The smaller Kabalite units in Venoms will grab objectives and throw Splinter Fire towards Termies. Double Cannon sounds points inefficient but if you are fighting Imperium you WILL be running up against Melta so the extra range will help you with skirting just outside of a Meltagun's 18" effective threat range without losing any firepower. The Razorwing Flocks are there to act as chaff as you will never finish deploying first against a Terminator army and also be disruptive and a general nuisance via screening and clogging up charge and firing lanes as well as taking overwatch fire.
When using the Wyches you want to charge them so that they come within 1" of as many units as you can (yes even vehicles). The reason being is that they will HAVE to Pile-in towards the Wyches and will have to roll off against you in order to fall back. Even if they win the roll off, that unit just lost an entire turn of shooting unless it has fly or is an Ultrasmurf unit with Chapter Tactics (though in the latter case, why are you even friends with them for using that cheese?).
As for drugs I would do the following in order of priority with the picks that I strongly recommend in bold:
Adrenalight is the best drug for dedicated assault units, Grave Lotus second. If you think you can get Turn 1/2 charges then Hypex and/or Serpentin is going to give you more mileage. If you can get then stuck into combat then Painbringer isn't bad for Wyches and Succubus. T4 and 6+/4++/6+++ for the Wyches or Succubus in close combat is awesome.
Yeah, all in all, I'm sure I could have a more efficient list, but a big part of this is just working with what I have available (second hand army, built for a past edition), e.g. 3 raiders and a ravager are all I have, and I have zero venoms, whereas I have a ton of Reavers (15 of them). But this definitely helps for looking at where to expand.
Why not splitting the reavers into two units of 6 bikes?
Mostly it had been just because I only have one that is modelled as an Arena Champion w/ a power sword, but honestly I'm thinking that's less important than using them as mobile tank-busters
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/10 13:11:15
"But If the Earth isn't flat, then how did Jabba chakka wookiee no Solo ho ho ho hoooooooo?"
Yeah the main problem with Reavers is that they really are not cost effective, especially when compared to other bike units. If you don't mind branching into other Aeldari armies I would definitely look at the Shining Spears, Skyweavers, Vypers and Windriders (Scatterbikes will still ruin the day of any TEQ unit even with -1 to hit) as they all give Reavers some very stiff competition.
As for more recommendations. You are in luck because the one thing Aeldari are good at in general is wrecking other Elite armies (You will see more of this in the recommendations section below).
Definitely keep the Helions and give them Adrenalight! Seriously 15 of them against TH/SS Termies will give 30 shots that wound on 4+ and 49 Attacks which is enough to either severely cripple if not outright delete a Terminator unit per turn. The sheer number of saves this unit forces an opponent to take is insane. Painbringer is kind of wasted on them given T4 will only do so much with a 6+ save (plus the PFP 6+). Compare the Wyches who can hide out in close combat to combine that T4 with 6+/4++/6+++ and you will see who can make better use of it. Reavers are also a great candidate for Painbringer too given T5 with a 4+ is tanky as hell for the Aeldari.
With the Wyches I would honestly just clip off the Shardnet and Razorflails and use regular Wyches if you don't have any extra boxes. It's not really worth losing the pistol shots and bonus attack when you're hitting on 2+ Turn 3 onwards and the Succubus lets you re-roll 1's anyway.
One thing that could work is splitting the Wyches into two units and having each Raider contain a Wych unit and Trueborn unit. This lets them support each other and prevents you from having all of your eggs in one basket. I would see if you have any extra units or Kabalite spires as well since you have a Third Raider and toss on 8 Kabalites to ride with the Archon and Succubus.
If you did magnetise the Razorwing (Raider is hard to do but not impossible) I would definitely experiment with different numbers of DLs and Dissies. Basically you are always trading away a DL and paying 20 points to gain a Dissie so you really only want to do that when yo are absolutely sure you have enough Anti-Tank. That said if you are fighting mainly foot armies, go nuts with the Dissies, they are one of the best weapons we have.
As for expansion, check below for recommendations as to what to expand into if you are in a TEQ heavy meta.:
Spoiler:
I would strongly consider your Anti-Tank options. Hopefully you magnetised the Razorwing as being able to switch between DLs and Dissies is nice. If not it's not the end of the world. I would consider a Squad of 4 Scourges with 4 DLs as an alternative. Hopefully you still have the Dark Lances from the Scourge and Kabalite Sprues.
Incubi are flat out nasty against TEQ.
You can never go wrong with basic units of Kabalite Warriors. They're your cheap scoring, your anti-infantry or anti-tank, and your source of Raiders and Venoms. Splinter weapons are nice for pouring on more and mroe saves.
Razorwing Flocks are awesome for protecting your units from Deep Striking Terminators. Definitely worth the points even after they received a points cost increase.
The Tantalus and Reaper are both known for just deleting units off the table, TEQ included. If you are willing to shell out for Forge World, you won't be disappointed. The Reapers will likely outperform the Rabager in a TEQ heavy meta too.
If you are concerned about Terminators then Harlequins, Dark Reapers, Wraithguard, Shadow Spectres (especially accompanied by a Hemlock or Warlock on Bike for that nice -2 to hit), and Fire Dragons in order of effectiveness are worth considering (Factoring in Transport costs).
Dark Reapers are in the running for one of the best units in the game right now and if you are open to Craftworld lists then they are definitely worth the points.
Harlequins also eat Terminators for breakfast and are definitely a great and lore-friendly option for any Aeldari army. Every one of them can carry a Fusion Pistol (S8, -4 AP. d6 Damage) and a Harlequin's Embrace wounds Termies on a 4+ and has -3AP. A unit of 5 Plus Trouple Master armed with Fusion Pistols and Harlequin's Embrace will deal on average 9.48 Wounds in shooting then 8.75 Wounds in close combat. Easily enough to delete your average 5-man Terminator Squad from the table. Even against Storm Shields you are looking at 4.06 Wounds from the shooting and 4.37 Wounds from the ensuing close combat phase, and the survivor will be stuck in close combat (which is good because then your Glass Cannon Ninja Elf Clowns won't get shot to bits in your opponent's turn).
Wraithguard are Wraithguard. Honestly they are worth taking purely as a DISTRACTION CARNIFEX alone. D-Scythes still cause that sort of PTSD flashback in people. Just about any weapon option available to them will ruin the day of any Terminator Squad. Special mention to the D-Scythed because even TH/SS Termies will think twice before charging into 5/10/15 S10 AP -4 Auto Hitting attacks.
Shadow Spectres are currently my workhorse and mainstay unit. Each one functionally has a Blaster and Heavy Flamer rolled into one while while they are less mobile than Scourges, they are considerably more durable. They are -1 to hit which stacks with Conceal and nobody in thier right mind wants to charge these things.
Fire Dragons because Melta ruins any Terminator's day, plus the Exarch can take a Heavy Flamer for pouring on more Saves and giving the unit a serious bite in overwatch.
DorkKnightRahal wrote: Yeah the main problem with Reavers is that they really are not cost effective, especially when compared to other bike units. If you don't mind branching into other Aeldari armies I would definitely look at the Shining Spears, Skyweavers, Vypers and Windriders (Scatterbikes will still ruin the day of any TEQ unit even with -1 to hit) as they all give Reavers some very stiff competition.
As for more recommendations. You are in luck because the one thing Aeldari are good at in general is wrecking other Elite armies (You will see more of this in the recommendations section below).
Definitely keep the Helions and give them Adrenalight! Seriously 15 of them against TH/SS Termies will give 30 shots that wound on 4+ and 49 Attacks which is enough to either severely cripple if not outright delete a Terminator unit per turn. The sheer number of saves this unit forces an opponent to take is insane. Painbringer is kind of wasted on them given T4 will only do so much with a 6+ save (plus the PFP 6+). Compare the Wyches who can hide out in close combat to combine that T4 with 6+/4++/6+++ and you will see who can make better use of it. Reavers are also a great candidate for Painbringer too given T5 with a 4+ is tanky as hell for the Aeldari.
With the Wyches I would honestly just clip off the Shardnet and Razorflails and use regular Wyches if you don't have any extra boxes. It's not really worth losing the pistol shots and bonus attack when you're hitting on 2+ Turn 3 onwards and the Succubus lets you re-roll 1's anyway.
One thing that could work is splitting the Wyches into two units and having each Raider contain a Wych unit and Trueborn unit. This lets them support each other and prevents you from having all of your eggs in one basket. I would see if you have any extra units or Kabalite spires as well since you have a Third Raider and toss on 8 Kabalites to ride with the Archon and Succubus.
If you did magnetise the Razorwing (Raider is hard to do but not impossible) I would definitely experiment with different numbers of DLs and Dissies. Basically you are always trading away a DL and paying 20 points to gain a Dissie so you really only want to do that when yo are absolutely sure you have enough Anti-Tank. That said if you are fighting mainly foot armies, go nuts with the Dissies, they are one of the best weapons we have.
As for expansion, check below for recommendations as to what to expand into if you are in a TEQ heavy meta.:
Spoiler:
I would strongly consider your Anti-Tank options. Hopefully you magnetised the Razorwing as being able to switch between DLs and Dissies is nice. If not it's not the end of the world. I would consider a Squad of 4 Scourges with 4 DLs as an alternative. Hopefully you still have the Dark Lances from the Scourge and Kabalite Sprues.
Incubi are flat out nasty against TEQ.
You can never go wrong with basic units of Kabalite Warriors. They're your cheap scoring, your anti-infantry or anti-tank, and your source of Raiders and Venoms. Splinter weapons are nice for pouring on more and mroe saves.
Razorwing Flocks are awesome for protecting your units from Deep Striking Terminators. Definitely worth the points even after they received a points cost increase.
The Tantalus and Reaper are both known for just deleting units off the table, TEQ included. If you are willing to shell out for Forge World, you won't be disappointed. The Reapers will likely outperform the Rabager in a TEQ heavy meta too.
If you are concerned about Terminators then Harlequins, Dark Reapers, Wraithguard, Shadow Spectres (especially accompanied by a Hemlock or Warlock on Bike for that nice -2 to hit), and Fire Dragons in order of effectiveness are worth considering (Factoring in Transport costs).
Dark Reapers are in the running for one of the best units in the game right now and if you are open to Craftworld lists then they are definitely worth the points.
Harlequins also eat Terminators for breakfast and are definitely a great and lore-friendly option for any Aeldari army. Every one of them can carry a Fusion Pistol (S8, -4 AP. d6 Damage) and a Harlequin's Embrace wounds Termies on a 4+ and has -3AP. A unit of 5 Plus Trouple Master armed with Fusion Pistols and Harlequin's Embrace will deal on average 9.48 Wounds in shooting then 8.75 Wounds in close combat. Easily enough to delete your average 5-man Terminator Squad from the table. Even against Storm Shields you are looking at 4.06 Wounds from the shooting and 4.37 Wounds from the ensuing close combat phase, and the survivor will be stuck in close combat (which is good because then your Glass Cannon Ninja Elf Clowns won't get shot to bits in your opponent's turn).
Wraithguard are Wraithguard. Honestly they are worth taking purely as a DISTRACTION CARNIFEX alone. D-Scythes still cause that sort of PTSD flashback in people. Just about any weapon option available to them will ruin the day of any Terminator Squad. Special mention to the D-Scythed because even TH/SS Termies will think twice before charging into 5/10/15 S10 AP -4 Auto Hitting attacks.
Shadow Spectres are currently my workhorse and mainstay unit. Each one functionally has a Blaster and Heavy Flamer rolled into one while while they are less mobile than Scourges, they are considerably more durable. They are -1 to hit which stacks with Conceal and nobody in thier right mind wants to charge these things.
Fire Dragons because Melta ruins any Terminator's day, plus the Exarch can take a Heavy Flamer for pouring on more Saves and giving the unit a serious bite in overwatch.
I am definitely looking to expand into other Aeldari as I can, right now I'm just a bit short on funds, getting back into the game, and I got this army for a steal (we're talking $150 for about $830 worth or model), and Harlequins are definitely on my to buy list. My shop actually still has a copy of Death Masque that nobody has more than glanced at for three years, and I'm gonna be buying it for myself as a Christmas present and then hopefully seeing if I can either find somebody playing Spess Mehreens who held on to the 'Quins from their box and wants to trade for the Death Watch from my box, or else selling them for a nice middle ground between half the DM box and their individual value so I can pick up a few more 'Quins models, especially more Skyweavers (tho I am still hoping the end of the year and points readjustment sees GW listening and dropping the price on Reavers a little). Still trying to figure out the best way to kitbash more Embraces. Pity it's not the Caress that is great in the meta, I could literally just cut the tube off the Kisses. After that, since I'm not in a huge rush to expand, I've got my eye on that Tantalus as my first ever FW model. I have a serious <anatomical function omitted> for that model. From there, tho, my plan is to use the base I have to expand into Aeldari in general, so it's definitely good to know what units to look at.
I should have plenty of DLs, even after some of them (along with some shredders and a few others) fall prey to blaster conversions for my Kabs. But after getting advice from several players, I'm definitely planning in fielding a unit of 4-DL Scourges (as well as a unit of 4 blaster scourges)
Definitely planning to magnetize that Crimson Hunter/Razorwing conversion as I convert it, but first I'm gonna have to rip the poor thing apart and gather the bitz I need. For now I'm just proxying, since in casual play my local group is very proxy friendly.
I appreciate the advice, man! Much to mull over.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Right now, my revised list, just based on what I have or will be available to me reasonably soon is looking like this
I think with what I've got now, this is probably the best best I have for taking out TEQs while still having a bit of splinter fire to throw on regular MEQs, and still put a good deal more bodies on the table than my opponent. I'd run two raiders each with one squad of Blasterborn and one squad of splinter Kabs, and the third with the Archon and thirds squad of Kabs, use the Reavers to provide high AP mobile shots, while doubling as a hard to kill Melee unit when needed, use the Hellions to the down vehicles or shooty units and keep them from shooting, taking advantage of their hit and run to shoot, charge, fight, fall back, shoot, charge, etc., use the blaster scourges to deep strike on a flank and sweep in knocking out units, and drop the lance scourges in a safe space in cover and an entranced heavy support
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/09/11 05:22:18
"But If the Earth isn't flat, then how did Jabba chakka wookiee no Solo ho ho ho hoooooooo?"
Looks like a nice list in a TEQ heavy meta. I would, however make it an Outrider Detachment. You need 2 HQs to make a Battalion anyway and the list is fine as is.
If you had your heart set on a Battalion I would drop the Reavers down to 6, grab a Succubus for your Warlord taking Tenacious Survivor (Blast Pistol is nice here as Glaive and Blast Pistol seems made for murdering TEQ), or extra Blaster Archon, and either make one of the Kabalite Squads an 8 man Squad, or even bump the Hellions up to 12. Either that or add more Scourges to the mobile Blaster group for ablative wounds and more splinter fire.
DorkKnightRahal wrote: Looks like a nice list in a TEQ heavy meta. I would, however make it an Outrider Detachment. You need 2 HQs to make a Battalion anyway and the list is fine as is.
If you had your heart set on a Battalion I would drop the Reavers down to 6, grab a Succubus for your Warlord taking Tenacious Survivor (Blast Pistol is nice here as Glaive and Blast Pistol seems made for murdering TEQ), or extra Blaster Archon, and either make one of the Kabalite Squads an 8 man Squad, or even bump the Hellions up to 12. Either that or add more Scourges to the mobile Blaster group for ablative wounds and more splinter fire.
Ah, y'know what, I originally had it as a battalion because I had the Succubus, and wanted to maximize CP, and then I dropped her and forgot to just make it an outrider detachment. I think I may follow your advice though, and drop the number of Reavers for a Succubus and both more Hellions and more Kabs for the command raider (I'm gonna reclaim a few points by taking the blast pistols off the Dracons, since I'm not really sold on the value of 10pts for a 6" weapon in a squad I really don't want within 6" of anyone). I'm really hoping Chapter Approved sees a points drop for those Reavers, though, because they really are a great utility model, but now that I've looked at the comparable Quin and CW units, I can't believe Reavers are 10pts more apiece for a unit only marginally better. 22, 23pts seems a lot more reasonable to me. I don't have any more Scourges right now, but I do think I'm gonna pick up another box at some point, because I would like to have some shardcarbines with my Blaster-scourges, if for no other reason than to eat wounds, it's one of the better values for the number of special weapons that can be converted to Blasters, and they're one of my favorite models.
I'll probably play around with the list both as is, as an Outrider detachment and w/ succubus as a battalion and auxiliary and see which plays better, if there even is a marked difference.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/11 17:27:35
"But If the Earth isn't flat, then how did Jabba chakka wookiee no Solo ho ho ho hoooooooo?"
Honestly an Agoniser and Blast Pistolon the Dracon in the Trueborn squad isn't bad if you have the points. They get 2 attacks each and the Dracon 3 so once you're hitting on 2's in Close Combat and rerolling charges they can do work in melee as a flanking unit.
