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Can one character only summon one unit per turn using Dark Ritual.

The wording suggests that you can try once per character at the end of each movement phase if they stood still and didn't arrive as reinforcements.

Do you mean Daemonic Ritual?
I am now wondering if I too have overlooked something, I really would have liked a straight forward 'One per Character' restriction... nay, I would expect it to be there.


I can form a few Timing arguments and make them believable, they would even be correct from a fundamental viewpoint. If you do believe that the Sequencing Rule does create a Stack of Rules, by having a specific player decide the order the Rules are resolved in, then you will never be able to evoke this Rule twice. At the 'Start of the End of' point all Rules with the correct timing will 'Proc' and the player in question then stacks then in a particular order. When all the Rules on the stack have been resolved, the Movement phase has reached the 'end of the end' and we are no longer in the Movement Phase. Due to a quirk of the Rules, we are not yet in the next phase, but I just wanted people thinking on that unusual void that exists between the Phases and the Turns....

I think we can agree, however, that the Authors would have informed us if they intended for the Characters in question to use this ability more then once per Movement Phase....
Of course, I also expected them to add a 'Once per Character' restriction because... so who knows at this point, I shouldn't have hope for consistency!

The Daemonic Ritual occurs "... at the end of their Movement phase..." If they repeat the ritual, was the first attempt truly "... at the end of their Movement phase..."?

Ghaz,
That method leads to madness... but I argued the same thing, just with stacks.

The problem I have is difficult to explain, so lets see if I can keep it simple:
If doing 1X before 2X means 1X was not done 'at the end of the phase'
Then, why would doing 1X before Y not have the same issue?

If nothing stops us from evoking X multiple times, then Sequencing does allow one something like the following:
1X, 3X, Y, 2X, Z ... void between phases .... Start of Psychic Phase (I think, I never used it)

This is why I have liked some sort of 'once per character per turn' restriction, stops the question from occurring in the first place regardless how many times we can evoke by default....
Of course - if someone pulled that against me I too would simply state there is only one 'end of movement phase' on the timeline, so the Rule can only be resolved once before it is 'too late.'

 Ghaz wrote:
The Daemonic Ritual occurs "... at the end of their Movement phase..." If they repeat the ritual, was the first attempt truly "... at the end of their Movement phase..."?

Further to this line of reasoning could you prevent another effect from occurring at the end of the movement phase by using Daemonic Ritual as that effect would no longer truely be at the end of the movement phase?


*edit*
Having a look at the source material I would like to add, the rule says "Instead of moving in their Movement phase...". So since you can only move once per phase, you can only substitute that action once.

JakeSiren,
While that would, logically, be true... consider the following:

Q: Can abilities that are used ‘instead of shooting’, such as
Smoke Launchers, be used if the model using them has Fallen
Back, Advanced or has enemy models within 1" of it?
A: Yes. A model can use such an ability so long as it does
not shoot – it does not matter whether this is because the
model cannot shoot or it chooses not to.

So as long as it doesn't Move, what stops it from doing multiple 'instead of Moving' actions?
Even if something was to remove it's ability to Move, period, it still can carry out 'instead of Moving' actions!

That's a fair point Jinx. The counter question is what allows it to do multiple 'instead of moving'?

Given that we have a permissive rule set I have not see any permissions that allows us to perform multiple 'instead of moving' actions. Nor do we have permissions to perform an 'instead of moving' action if we had lost permissions to move. The FAQ that you quoted grants permissions regarding 'instead of shooting' actions.


On a side note, I do love the idea of a Daemonic Herald strolling up the field then suddenly unleashing a 100 strong hoard of lesser daemons onto an "unsuspecting" enemy. (I need to make good use of my 60 blood letters)

What revokes permission?
We clearly have permission to use abilities listed on the Datasheets in the first place, so we would need further instructions limiting when and how we go about using them. Many contain such restrictions within, such as 'End of Movement Phase' giving us permission to only use such during the Movement Phase. In this case we have the restriction of 'instead of Movement,' and nothing restricting us to only a single 'instead of Movement' action. This is why the above answer is very problematic as well, because it further reinforces that all you need to do to benefit from a 'instead of X' Rule is to not do the restricted action.

As for Shooting over Movement, a Frequently Asked Question answer is not a piece of Errata that changes the wording of a Specific Rule, and in this case it can not. We have no instructions specific to 'Instead of Shooting' and 'Instead of Movement,' these are simply left to common English definitions and uses of the word. This clearly led to some confusions and so the authors took the time to inform us of their intent using one of many possible examples. If the Authors intended for 'Instead of Shooting' to be different to 'Instead of Movement,' why did they not take the chance to inform us of this fact... instead?

I don't see anything that revokes permission, but you have yet to demonstrate permission to perform this action multiple times IMO. The permission has been written as "Instead of X do Y". Not "Instead of X do Y and Y and Y and..."


Beyond labouring the point that GW could write the rule with clearer restrictions / multi-use permissions, is your opinion of how it should be played (regardless of strict RAW) in favour of multiple rituals per character / turn, or a single ritual per character / turn?

Multiple "instead of moving" is fine; or a blanket "instead of (insert normal action here)".

Ghaz is correct on "at the end of the model's x-phase"; once you have completed the first attempt, the model's phase is done for that rule, but you can perform several different "at the end of phase" abilities. For example a nurgle devoted warpsmith that has taken damage earlier in the game in a non-matched play game can do the following: remain still in the movement phase and be within range of a friendly chaos vehicle but "activating" last in your movement phase, attempt to summon at the end of his movement, attempt repairs at the end of your movement phase, use grandfather's blessing strategem to heal himself at the end of your movement phase, and you can activate Tide of Traitors strategem at the end of your movement phase.

All of this has to do with sequencing. They are all happening at the same time, you are just choosing the order in which they resolve(demonic ritual is technically happening before the rest as that happens at the end of the warpsmith's movement phase, not yours). Attempting the ritual, then attempting it again is not simultaneous; as you are only allowed 1 attempt when the conditions are met.

While my gut reaction is "1 summon per person per turn" I suddenly get the idea of 3 chaos lords walking onto the field of battle, staring down an army of ultramarines.

The ultramarines guns are set free, unleashing a torrent of heavy bolter fire upon the first chaos lord who is swallowed up in the waves of bullets, falling to the ground.

Then the laz cannons fire, bright beams of energy flying across the field and hitting the 2nd lord square in the chest. He sinks to his knees, dead but with a smile on his face.

The 3rd lord does not move. His empty hands raise to the sky's, and he starts out by saying one thing. "As it was planned."

Suddenly the field erupts with deamons from everywhere. A deamon prince jumps through a portal and bellows a challenge to the marines. Pink horrors fill the field, all to ready to make some new friends with the blue smurfs. A great unclean one pulls itself from the ground, as if growing from the blood of the dead lord whom had been standing there a few moments ago. Nurgelings skitter around his feet, their giggling chatter cutting into the hearts of the marine scouts who are mear inches away.


Like I said, this could be awesome. But I think this falls into the same issue with noise Marines music of the apocalypse ability, it seems it should only work one way, it makes sense that way, but GW doesn't want to do it that way so who knows what the intent here is?

JakeSiren,
Why do you think the the Shooting, Fighting, Charging and other Sequences have a line informing us we can not Select a Unit twice?

We are granted permission to use abilities listed on the Datasheet by default, and we would needed some additional instructions limiting that to 'one per phase' in order to limit it once per phase. It is not only sequencing for each phase that contains specific instructions limiting multiple-evocations per unit, no other Rule in this game functions on the concept that we need to be told we can use it multiple times in a sitting. For example, no one is saying Daemonic Machine Spirit allows the Model to ignore the penalty on moving and firing Heavy weapon only for the first weapon fired. The logical conclusion to an argument creating this unwritten Restriction, that all Rules need to inform us if we can use them multiple times in a single sitting, will break a whole swath of Rules that clearly function perfectly fine being multiple-use without specific instructions stating so.

As for my opinion, it is very similar to your own:-
One can not complete an action a second time without completing the action a first time - not without some specific instructions telling us to half-resolve, interupt and then resolve another instance... yes, some of those exist
Nothing allows multiple sources of Daemonic Ritual to be resolved as a single action - nothing within the Rule says to roll multiple dice, verify multiple results, or even to select multiple characters
So we select it once but before we can resolve it Sequencing kicks in and informs us that we must place it in a stack
When that stack ends the Movement Phase has officially ended...
Alas, too late to go back and select the character to complete a second casting of the Deamonic Ritual

Like I said, I would rather an out-right restriction then having to create a Timing Conflict just to get the same thing


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Added:
I will also say this....
I don't believe we "evoke" Rules in this game or any other, every Rule is always 'in effect' and will contain specific wording to inform us what to do in specific situations. All we are doing when we 'evoke a rule' is bringing to the attention of our opponent that a Rule has specific wording to operate at that point in the time line. I guess I should start changing 'evoke' to 'proc' as that has become a very useful word for explaining when certain situations are met a 'always on' rule causes an effect to occur. This is why Timing is important to a lot of my arguments, that one point on the time-line being over before a second instant can occur is good reason for me.

Also -
All the 'once per' Rules I found through quick review support this: The only one that addresses a phase, as opposed to battle/turn/game, was for Psychics.
Which makes sense as that phase is one that lacks the 'can only choose a Power once' restriction, that is only in play for Matched-Games and this Rule prevented multi-castings on one Unit.

Jinx, I see your point and I don't have a counter argument against it.

For interest sake, in your example of a stack what is preventing you from loading it up multiple times with the same action? Ie: during the movement phase you declare that instead of moving you will utilize multiple instances of the daemonic ritual rule.

Ie, what is to stop you from activating the rule multiple times to add to the stack at the end of the turn?


I think Kommissar Kel has basically explained how multiple "instead of" actions should be played spot on. (I realize I may have accidentally given the impression that I was arguing for only allowing one "instead of" action)

Is the question isn't it, if we get to choose when it activates then what stops us from making multiple versions of it in the queue?

Now the rest is personal opinion and there would be two major problems explaining this; I fear my inability to explain concepts outside of direct Rule quotes and what is a 'fundamental of game play' differs from region to region anyway.
What stops multiple activation is the fact they never get switched between on/off in the first place. All Rules and Abilities are always in play, it is just the fact most of them do nothing within situation X as they where designed for situation Y. For example; a Rule saying you can move 6 inches extra if you Advance is still 'on' when your Shooting, it just has nothing to do but wait till you Advance. This is why Timing Restrictions are important, not because they tell us when the Rule is 'in effect' but because they limit the Rules ability to do something outside of a specific period of time. The Rule is still there trying to do something, but it is being told to wait till a specific point in the timeline has occurred where it's instructions can be correctly injected.

Consider this abstract example:-
If you have six Models with 'Deamonic Ritual' then there are six instances of it on the sideline all shouting 'Hey, you know you can summon Models at the end of the movement phase?' "Why do you ignore us! Is it not the Movement Phase yet?" "Tell us when this Model has finished it's Movement Phase, we have something to do!"
When it becomes time for them to 'proc' they all scream happily and try to do what they are instructed to do, but Sequencing rubs it's forehead and screams '**!% children, you are making too much noise... LINE UP!"
They all line up, get resolve one at a time and afterwards... they go back to screaming out "you know you can summon Models at the end of the Movement phase?" "OOooh, you know, why don't we go again!" "Hey, look, it is the Psychic Phase... oh, booo... now we have to stand around watching everyone else dooooo thiiiiiings."

Daemonic Ritual itself is a very interesting ability. Presumably, Daemons will get their own codex at some point. Which makes it one of those abilities that can affect units not even part of their own codex without those units having a special rule that allows them to make use of this special rule in the first place.

Psyker powers let us target things after the pysker himself casts the power. Yet here's an ability that only works when the thing that wants to be summoned and isn't even on the board yet uses its ability to grant the ability to summon to a character that is on the board and lacks any relation to the Daemon codex or this ability who then proceeds to summon reinforcements from another detachment, codex, even faction, that doesn't even EXIST in your army list and can be considered outside of the game entirely... all because that unit does have this ability.

Let the sheer insanity of this rule fully sink in and blow your mind. Rules be damned, this edition GW has proven they are willing throw out everything we know about conventional rule interpretations and bring in the shenanigans. Often by their OWN rules interpretations. What seems like nonsense sometimes has been made into actual rulings and this is not the most farfetched theory I've heard.

You know I never looked closely at it, Daemons are not my thing, so actually didn't realize where the Deamonic Ritual was located.
Now I am crying here as my brain slips another step towards insanity thanks to Game Workshop's writing... just... as... planned!


Seriously, why is this Rule not found on the Character themselves in the book?
I am also curious what this means for the whole 'how many instances of the rule are going onto the stack' question. It produces a result that can only be 'one' or 'unlimited,' and both interpretations have dire consequences for how Daemonic Ritual would be used on the tabletop. If there is only one instances of this Rule that is available to Chaos players, 'any chaos character' becomes instructions to select one and only one of the characters on the field to summon a single instance of the chosen Daemons. If it is an instance queued for every Daemon Unit waiting in the reserve pool, it becomes impossible to create a stack as we do not know how many castings it will take to deplete the reserve pool....


My family have probably seen my blank, hopeless 100000 yard stare through the warp long enough... to bed with I.

Bear with me, the conclusion I have isn't what you think it is so read to the end.

Currently the way I would play it is that each Daemon wanting to be summoned can trigger its ability. This means that they select any chaos character to attempt the summon as long as that character has not moved. Theoretically, if you have 50+ daemons waiting to be summoned then you can trigger this ability 50+ times, each time selecting a valid chaos character to perform the roll. I would argue that each daemon unit can only trigger their own summon roll once as with most abilities (can't trigger Music of the Apocalypse infinite times each time one guy dies), yet the character can attempt to summon every single unit. Rolling doubles will still slowly murder the summoner until he can no longer be a valid choice for the roll.

The crux of this matter I believe is explained in one of the first sentences. It denies a Chaos Character the right to be a summoner "if they themselves have been summoned to the battlefield this turn". This automatically throws out any concept of 'one' chaos summoner per turn because they would not have a rule forbidding using a summoned unit to summon unless you can summon multiple times per turn.

As multiple summons are allowed and as the rules do not make restrictions clear, I believe a single character can in fact attempt to summon every available unit he wishes until he murders himself on the summon rolls. Or multiple characters can but only once per unit being summoned.

However, there are no units "available" to be summoned. Daemonic Ritual does not require you to select a unit in advance (even more rules shenanigans, using an ability on a model that hasn't even been chosen yet). There are no reserve drops set aside like Deep Strike to select from. You can literally summon anything as long as you meet the god and summon roll requirements for it. The roll happens before choosing the unit. This means that Daemonic Ritual cannot be considered a unit ability that can be triggered an infinite number of times but as a faction ability that can only be triggered once per instance.

Where does all this back and forth rules nonsense get us? Determining what is considered an instance of Daemonic Ritual. Either a single instance is at the faction level and can only ever be once per turn or the instance is at the character level and requires some action be taken by each individual character to announce his summoning attempt. Either way, no character can summon more than a single unit because they may only trigger Daemonic Ritual once per instance of the rule, and there is only a single instance of the rule that can apply to them.

Though whether every character can trigger it once or only one character remains a mystery, to which I would remind people that multiple summons per turn was CONFIRMED in an earlier sentence of the same rule. Which means it cannot be one summon period. The only other option by process of elimination is that each character can attempt to summon once, provided they have not moved.

Which I think was the RAI all along.

This thing has me raising all sorts of questions:
the character cannot do so if they arrived
as reinforcements this turn, or if they themselves have been
summoned to the battlefield this turn

Permission for any Character that comes in from Reserves being revoked makes perfect sense, and if you treat 'summoned' as an identical situation (just brought into play = can not summon) there is no real problem but... just which one of these Units being summoned are Characters? This Rule creates a restriction on a situation that will never find ourselves in, as no Character is going to be 'summoned' to begin with. Well, at least until we find this Rule in other Codex's like we both fear will happen... I would call it future proofing, but this is Game Workshop!
At this point I would expect them to intend cross-Codex compatibility but do something stupid like name the Ability wrong in one book and have to Errata it, but I am cynical....

One of the problems I have is calculating Reinforcement Point costs:
In order to summon the right number of Units, ensuring we do not go over Points, we need to know the results of the dice....


The more I break down the order of things, the more I conclude this is something only 'analog thinking' can solve:-
When we are sitting at the table we do NOT have endless number of Units at our disposal, the number of Units will be dependant on the amount of Models in our collection and the Power Point/Point Level we agreed to with the Opponent
We also have the ability to further tweak just how many Reinforcement Points we have at our disposal, unless your insane and like Narrative against Summoners (A castle vs endless summons actually sounds fun.)
Thus: It is possible for us to know ahead of time just how many Units will have a chance to be summoned that phase - Even though the Rules treat it as a pile of points still, we still viewing it along the lines of 'which one of these possible Units do I summon next?'

Also:
I am growing more fond of the image of three summoners on the Table trying not to burn out as they are 'gateways for Chaos!'

 JinxDragon wrote:
just which one of these Units being summoned are Characters? This Rule creates a restriction on a situation that will never find ourselves in, as no Character is going to be 'summoned' to begin with.

Probably the Bloodthirsters and Heralds and Be'lakor and other Daemons that are characters. They can all be summoned because they have the Daemonic Ritual rule but they are also Chaos Characters. Daemons are a self-summoning army and can utilize their HQs to summon more things.

What you cannot do is use a Herald to summon a Herald who summons a Herald who also summons a Herald that summons yet another Herald.

Ah, my bad for not cracking open the Index... keep forgetting about that thing.
Here I was fearing some sort of 'laying the ground work for a future screw-up' but they already have built the high-rise behind me....

 Arkaine wrote:

 JinxDragon wrote:
just which one of these Units being summoned are Characters? This Rule creates a restriction on a situation that will never find ourselves in, as no Character is going to be 'summoned' to begin with.

Probably the Bloodthirsters and Heralds and Be'lakor and other Daemons that are characters. They can all be summoned because they have the Daemonic Ritual rule but they are also Chaos Characters. Daemons are a self-summoning army and can utilize their HQs to summon more things.

What you cannot do is use a Herald to summon a Herald who summons a Herald who also summons a Herald that summons yet another Herald.

Don't forget you can summon a deamon prince.

There is the penthouse....