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By pure math it is four ranks - two within an inch and two within an inch of a model within an inch.

But how are events playing it - two ranks or four ranks of 25mm based models.

Thanks

Plc

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 PLC wrote:
By pure math it is four ranks - two within an inch and two within an inch of a model within an inch.

But how are events playing it - two ranks or four ranks of 25mm based models.

Thanks

Plc

I can't see your picture.
But yes, assuming a close packing (like an hexagonal packing), you could in theory have 4 ranks attack.
In practice, it's never going to be that well laid out, and terrain often comes in the way.

Why are you asking exactly? And it's not so much a rules question, since the answer is always to measure the actual distance between your models.
   
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






With Cylinder nesting(the proper way to store gas cylinders; basically in a hex-grid) you can get many more models withun 1" ans within 1" of those within 1.

OP; yes, not even by math but actual measurement, you can have a straight line of 4 models able to attack a single model if they are all on 25mm bases.

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 PLC wrote:
By pure math it is four ranks - two within an inch and two within an inch of a model within an inch.

But how are events playing it - two ranks or four ranks of 25mm based models.

Thanks

Plc


Events are playing it by having you actually measure the models. You can't just move your dudes and then say "I'm not going to bother measuring because the math is on my side."

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Also, while this is theoretically exciting, how often does this come into practical play? How often do you have so many models attacking that you have to use maths to get a more precise answer than just simple eyeballing with a ruler?

Yesterday I saw 20 genestealers attack a Heldrake, and neither player bothered pulling out graph paper or a calculator, they just used their tapes.

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I mean, 1" is 25.4mm, meaning it is, definitively, 4 ranks. I would assume most events are playing by exact measurements, and if it came up, you could point that out, and show them on your tape measure. But I do have to ask how realistically you think it's ever going to come up, that models are going to pile in so neatly that you can have four ranks all engaged.

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Longtime Dakkanaut




The frustrating thing for me, is it gives a definitive tactical advantage to using the smaller bases. Now that blasts are out, the bigger bases don't help much.

..sigh.. admin. It's bad for plaguebearers who have just been repackaged from 25 to 32mm.

And the classic terminators on thier 25mm (Not that anyone can run four ranks of termies hah)

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With terrain, other nearby models and the models involved having poses that impact on placement, you always measure.
   
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There is no official ruling on base size. You can use any base you want. If your models come with 32mm, change it to 25mm, if you want. Its legal. Put your character on a 160mm base, its legal.
   
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p5freak wrote:
There is no official ruling on base size. You can use any base you want. If your models come with 32mm, change it to 25mm, if you want. Its legal. Put your character on a 160mm base, its legal.


Cool, then I'll just place some conscripts on knight bases and bubble wrap harder than ever! /s

Regardless of official rules on it, modeling for advantage is crap and no one should do it. I do think it's a little rude (though understandable if playing competitively) to force your opponent to try to update models to the most recent base size, if they've changed, but I think it's total TFG to use a base size that has never come with the model.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




It's worth noting that you can still fit 4 ranks of 32 mm bases. You can fit 4 ranks as long as each base is no more than 1 / (sqrt(3)-1) = 1.366" across. When you pack them together as tightly as possible, the first and third ranks are less than one base diameter apart. Obviously in practice it gets very hard to do this as bases approach the critical size.
   
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 Deathypoo wrote:
p5freak wrote:
There is no official ruling on base size. You can use any base you want. If your models come with 32mm, change it to 25mm, if you want. Its legal. Put your character on a 160mm base, its legal.


Cool, then I'll just place some conscripts on knight bases and bubble wrap harder than ever! /s

Regardless of official rules on it, modeling for advantage is crap and no one should do it. I do think it's a little rude (though understandable if playing competitively) to force your opponent to try to update models to the most recent base size, if they've changed, but I think it's total TFG to use a base size that has never come with the model.


I've done that with my ork army but without thinking about any tactical advantage. My ork Nobzs barely fit on their tiny bases, given 32mm bases they actually look more threatening and elite. I expect GW haven't updated the kits yet. But if you were sticking everything on tiny bases just to pile into combat more I do think it's a little abusive, especially seeing as the any bases go rule from GW is all about not invalidating peoples old models.


   
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 Deathypoo wrote:

Regardless of official rules on it, modeling for advantage is crap and no one should do it. I do think it's a little rude (though understandable if playing competitively) to force your opponent to try to update models to the most recent base size, if they've changed, but I think it's total TFG to use a base size that has never come with the model.


Why is it TFG if i change my 32mm bases to 25mm ? Older SM had 25mm bases, newer ones have 32mm. Why should older SM have a tactical advantage over newer SM ? They cost the same points.
   
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p5freak wrote:
There is no official ruling on base size. You can use any base you want. If your models come with 32mm, change it to 25mm, if you want. Its legal. Put your character on a 160mm base, its legal.


That's not how rules work (they're permissive). The rules don't say you can change base size, so you can't. The rules assume you're playing with the models (including the bases) that GW sells you.


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Austria

The only rule for Bases say that you always measure from the Base and if the model does ot have one from the hull

nothing in the rules prevent me from playing my Rhinos with Base and my Dreadnought and Marines without

and there is a reason why GW removed the "use the base that come with the model" rule and replaced it with the above

The rules assume you're playing with the models (including the bases) that GW sells you.

So you say I am not allowed o use older models?

And I am not allowed to use official Bases but have to buy 3rd party stuff?
as the official GW 60mm Dreadnought is 65mm while the official 25mm vary from 23 to 24

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 yakface wrote:
p5freak wrote:
There is no official ruling on base size. You can use any base you want. If your models come with 32mm, change it to 25mm, if you want. Its legal. Put your character on a 160mm base, its legal.


That's not how rules work (they're permissive). The rules don't say you can change base size, so you can't. The rules assume you're playing with the models (including the bases) that GW sells you.



You are wrong. I emailed GW, and this is what they said :

many thanks for your email.

A couple of years ago we decided to give the Space Marine miniatures 32mm bases as we though they would suit them better, however as there is no official rule from Games Workshop on what bases a miniature has to be placed on you can choose on which to base them, theoretically you could have your entire Space Marine Army on 60mm bases. This is up to you.

I hope this answers your question and if you have any further queries then do not hesitate to contact us.

Kind regards


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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/17 10:12:40


 
   
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p5freak wrote:
You are wrong. I emailed GW, and this is what they said :

many thanks for your email.

A couple of years ago we decided to give the Space Marine miniatures 32mm bases as we though they would suit them better, however as there is no official rule from Games Workshop on what bases a miniature has to be placed on you can choose on which to base them, theoretically you could have your entire Space Marine Army on 60mm bases. This is up to you.

I hope this answers your question and if you have any further queries then do not hesitate to contact us.

Kind regards


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Its great that the mail order person gave you this response, and that he (or another) mail order person *might* indeed give me the same response were I to email them as well. However, none of that would make what they're saying actually correct, or part of the rules.

If GW wants what that mail order rep to be part of the rules, they need to say so in the rules, errata or FAQs, because otherwise there is simply no way for anyone to know that the answer they're giving is consistent or correct. There's no guarantee that if 100 people email them this question, that every mail order rep will respond the same way all the time. On top of that, it is incredibly easy to fake an email response from a mail order rep (not to say you did that, I don't believe that at all), but that makes such response more or less useless unless the opponent you're playing happens to believe you or has gone through the hassle of emailing GW themselves and got back the same response (which absolutely does not always happen).

I know for a fact situations in the past where I actually had a direct line to rules writers in the studio and was able to get their 'answer' to a rules question only to then have a FAQ later come out that totally contradicted the answer they had given me...proving that until GW actually puts an answer into some form of official rules document, you can only take what they're saying as an opinion from the one person who is responding to you (a mail order representative in this case).

On top of all that, the 'answer' given my this mail order rep is based on a fundamentally flawed preconception, that if there is 'official rule' on a particular area then somehow it means you're free to do whatever you want.

That is simply not how rules work. The rules must give you permission to be able to do something or else you cannot do it. Otherwise any player could say something like 'the rules don't say that when I put my hand on the table I automatically win the game' and he'd be right. So trying to play with the flawed logic of 'the rules don't say I can't, so...' instantly destroys the game.


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Austria

That is simply not how rules work. The rules must give you permission to be able to do something or else you cannot do it


But this is not how 40k works
Some rules imply the above, other are the other way around (if it is not forbidden it is allowed)

And the only rule about bases is:
If a model does not have a base, such is the case with many vehicles, measure to and from the closest point of that model’s hull instead
and that everything regarding the model is on the Datasheet

So no Datasheet say that the model has to have a base, so it is forbidden to use bases at all
Or you assume that all models have to have a base and it need to be on the Datasheet if the models has none or has to measure from the hull, and all tanks without base are illegal except those AntiGrav that have a special rule to measure from the hull

the other thin is, GW sells models with 25*75mm Bases and suggest to use 75*46mm Oval base for those models if you use the textured base Set

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/17 16:46:57


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Cardiff

There are no rules on base sizes.

The company sells over large/over Tall bases for Heroes.

Therefore the assertion you must use the base you get with the model is false.

Just use whatever base you like.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
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The reason there is no rule is because some people like more fancy showy bases. Also GW's base sizes aren't consistent.

That said try putting Typhus on a flyer base and going to a tournament or a friends house and see how that works out. Not at all and the "There is no rule saying I can't and GW said I can." is not going to help you.
32mm to 25mm is probably not going to get you in trouble. It's so small a difference and most people don't care. You can just as easily widen you unit by a model or two and do the same with 32mm bases staggered.
Bottom line it's not actually an advantage worth replacing or buying new bases for. The only real reason to do it would be you have 40 old models, and 20 new models, and want them all on the same size base. Because some people are weird like that.
   
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 yakface wrote:

That is simply not how rules work. The rules must give you permission to be able to do something or else you cannot do it. Otherwise any player could say something like 'the rules don't say that when I put my hand on the table I automatically win the game' and he'd be right. So trying to play with the flawed logic of 'the rules don't say I can't, so...' instantly destroys the game.



We wouldnt be able to play at all, if we stick to the exact wording of the rules.
   
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 yakface wrote:


That's not how rules work (they're permissive). The rules don't say you can change base size, so you can't. The rules assume you're playing with the models (including the bases) that GW sells you.



The problem with people's grating obsession with the concept of "permissive rule sets", is that it doesn't take into account the fact that a rule set cannot possibly cover every eventuality, there's always something missed, and if you're never willing to draw conclusions, most games would be literally unplayable.

I mean, by your logic, you can't even put a base on a model. Sure, the rules reference bases, and measuring from bases and all that, but they don't give any specific permission to put ANY base on a model, not even then one it comes with. I mean, nowhere does it tell you what base you can put a model on, it just says what to do if your model doesn't have a base. So there's no more permission to put your model on the base it came with than there is to put it on any other base. We have to assume that that's okay.

Also, by your logic, I could put a squad of Stormcast Eternals, some of the old Dark Eldar "slave girl" models, and Theodan on the table, and demand to be allowed to play an open play match of 40k with them, because technically the rules say "you can literally just pick any Citadel miniatures you have and start playing". Obviously, a reasonable person would assume that this meant models specifically intended to play 40k with, and which have a datasheet written for the 40k rules, but per your logic, what people might infer or deduce from what is or isn't written in the rules doesn't matter, only what GW explicitly gives permission for, and they do say I can use any use any Citadel miniature.

Even in a permissive ruleset, sometimes things have to be interpreted restrictively. Yeah, nobody is realistically suggesting that you should take a conscript and stick it on a 160mm base. But when it comes down to it, the rules provide zero guidance, restrictively or permissively, so unless we interpret based on the lack of a restriction, you cannot legally base your models, at all, in 40k.

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Funny thing is, there was an attempt a couple of years ago, where a bunch of people actually sent a small document to GW with suggested changes in the rules. GW couldn't, for copyright purposes, do anythig with the document, even if it was a 2000% improvement.
   
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I believe the correct answer is two ranks, regardless of base size.

From the Choose Targets section: "This represents the unit fighting in two ranks."

This is one of the rare cases where GW actually specified RAI along with the RAW.
   
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Germany

It's not two ranks, it's four with 25mm bases, when everyone is in base contact.
   
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Cardiff

As mentioned upthread, just use a damn ruler and measure what the actual distances are.

No more to it than that.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
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Containment_Failure wrote:
I believe the correct answer is two ranks, regardless of base size.

From the Choose Targets section: "This represents the unit fighting in two ranks."

This is one of the rare cases where GW actually specified RAI along with the RAW.


They say that it represents units fighting in two ranks to provide context for the abstract rule. The actual rule, however, simply states that it's all models within 1" and within 1" of a model within 1"

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AnFéasógMór wrote:
The problem with people's grating obsession with the concept of "permissive rule sets", is that it doesn't take into account the fact that a rule set cannot possibly cover every eventuality, there's always something missed, and if you're never willing to draw conclusions, most games would be literally unplayable.

I mean, by your logic, you can't even put a base on a model. Sure, the rules reference bases, and measuring from bases and all that, but they don't give any specific permission to put ANY base on a model, not even then one it comes with. I mean, nowhere does it tell you what base you can put a model on, it just says what to do if your model doesn't have a base. So there's no more permission to put your model on the base it came with than there is to put it on any other base. We have to assume that that's okay.

Also, by your logic, I could put a squad of Stormcast Eternals, some of the old Dark Eldar "slave girl" models, and Theodan on the table, and demand to be allowed to play an open play match of 40k with them, because technically the rules say "you can literally just pick any Citadel miniatures you have and start playing". Obviously, a reasonable person would assume that this meant models specifically intended to play 40k with, and which have a datasheet written for the 40k rules, but per your logic, what people might infer or deduce from what is or isn't written in the rules doesn't matter, only what GW explicitly gives permission for, and they do say I can use any use any Citadel miniature.

Even in a permissive ruleset, sometimes things have to be interpreted restrictively. Yeah, nobody is realistically suggesting that you should take a conscript and stick it on a 160mm base. But when it comes down to it, the rules provide zero guidance, restrictively or permissively, so unless we interpret based on the lack of a restriction, you cannot legally base your models, at all, in 40k.

I'm sorry, but that's just how rules, as a concept, work. Does that mean that GW writes perfect rules to cover every possible concept that people can try to throw at the game? Of course not. But that doesn't change how rules, as a concept, function.

The thing is, GW does provide bases with their models, in some cases, instructions for putting those models on their bases and then they showcase pictures of the models on their bases on both their website and in their rulebooks & codexes. Since the rules refer to models (and their bases), it is a safe assumption to say that when the rules refer to a model (and its base) they're talking about the models (and their bases) that GW sells as a kit to players.

Now, obviously GW does sell things like character base upgrade kits and has talked about converting models many, many, many times (a concept which also isn't covered in the rules), so its clear that there is some expectation from the company that players can, and will convert their models, including changing their model's bases.

However, it is important to recognize that none of this is explicitly allowed in the rules, and therefore isn't 'technically' allowed. Why is it important to recognize this? Because it means that anytime you do this, you should be checking with your opponents and/or the tournament organizer to make sure everything you've done is kosher with them. Obviously if all you're doing is putting a few character models onto slightly larger bases or updating all your old SM models to be on the current 'larger' SM infantry bases then nobody is going to care.

But if you don't understand the concept of how rules are constructed and you improperly assume that 'if the rules don't say I can't do something then I can do it', then you'll think you can put all your characters onto Knight-sized bases to increase their aura range and you'll believe that there is nothing anyone can do to stop you from this. But this is wrong. The rules don't technically giver permission for base swapping or conversions, so anytime you do this, you're essentially relying on the graciousness of your opponent to understand and agree with what you've done with your army.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/20 00:56:58


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yakface's 40K rule #1: Although the rules allow you to use modeling to your advantage, how badly do you need to win your toy soldier games?
yakface's 40K rule #2: Friends don't let friends start a MEQ army.
yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that!
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It actually depends on what they are base contact with during melee.

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 yakface wrote:


But if you don't understand the concept of how rules are constructed and you improperly assume that 'if the rules don't say I can't do something then I can do it', then you'll think you can put all your characters onto Knight-sized bases to increase their aura range and you'll believe that there is nothing anyone can do to stop you from this. But this is wrong. The rules don't technically giver permission for base swapping or conversions, so anytime you do this, you're essentially relying on the graciousness of your opponent to understand and agree with what you've done with your army.



I dont find anything about the rules being permissive, neither in the rules, nor in the FAQs. Thats pure speculation on you part. Anyway, i have emailed GW about base size, and i have a response from them. They make the rules, what they say counts. You can use any base size you want. Its legal to put a character on a knight sized base.
   
 
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