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Hello there

I didn't found any question about this, please excuse me if this was already answered.

The rules about "Perils of the Warp":

If you roll a double 1 or double 6 when taking a psychic test, the psyker suffers D3 mortal wounds... If the psyker is slain by Perils of the Warp, the power they were attempting to manifest automatically fails and each unit within 6" immediately suffers D3 mortal wounds...

So my question is what happens when an aspiring sorcerer in a Thousand sons rubrics squad suffer Perils of the Warp and suffer more than 1 mortal wound?

The sorcerer only has 1 wound, so the extra wounds would pass on the rubric squad, the power would fail AND units within 6" would suffer D3 mortal wounds? The sorcerer is part of the squad so it would be logical to follow the rules of other "psychic squads" and not "spread" the damage, but there is no mention to it in the rules or faqs... And from a fluff perspective, I think is pretty extreme for the servants of the supposedly god of magic that they suffer an attack from their master daemons


What do you think?

Aspiring Sorcerer's in my mind and how i would use them is just to Deny Any casting from your opponent.

If you want to cast a bad smite with them, you do run the risk of killing the Sorc (D3 mortal wounds to him, if you roll over a 1 thats extra dmg bleeding to the squad. *then* you have the d3MW for being within 6" of a exploding sorc. Nasty. So worst case scenario for you would be

3 rolled on D3MW on the Sorc: Losing the sorc to 1 MW, then two more ruberics

3 rolled on D3MW for being withing 6": 3 more ruberics die.

If your running 5 man ruberic squads you just lost a whole squad.

From a fluff perspective - These are people aspiring to be sorcerers, they still have yet to prove themselves to the gods and have no experience controlling their powers.

Ok, so its totally absurd. Last time the TS had army rules they automatically passed all psychic test, which is in line with the fluff and with the gameplay of the army. They depend on the psychic powers they can launch, so if with every other power they try to launch they destroy one squad themselves is really nonsensical...

From a fluff point of view, the squad sorcerers are not as powerful as the characters but they were gretly superior to the average human psyker, and not weak enough to make their heads explode and half their squad with them, is really detrimental of the experience.

Thanks for your replies anyway, i hope when the codex arrives the Thousand Sons can launch powers with a bit more realibility as it should be, because as i said it has been always a psychic army (since the 3.5 CSM codex), simply a "they can reroll all psychic test" i think could be enough, though ideal thing would be automatically passing them or ignoring "Perils".

By the way, are there any form to contact GW and tell them some about this?


Greetings

It says the Psyker takes d3 mortal wounds. The Sorc is the only one who loses wounds from Perils. The Rubrics would then lose wounds from the resulting explosion if/when he dies

BomBomHotdog is correct.

But in the rules for mortal wounds, i think it says that the 'extra' damage does not get lost, instead it passes onto the other models of the units, or did i get it wrong?

Rulebook wrote:[...] Unlike normal attacks, excess damage from attacks that inflict mortal wounds is not lost. Instead keep allocating damage to another model in the target unit until either all the damage has been allocated or the target unit is destroyed.

Besides, the sorcerer has only 1 wound, and there is no way he can ignore or save the damage from the 'perils' mortal wound, so is an auto-death if he gets a double 1 or double 6.

From 'Perils of the Warp', page 178 of the main rulebook (emphasis added):

If you roll a double 1 or a double 6 when taking a Psychic test, the psyker immediately suffers Perils of the Warp. The psyker suffers D3 mortal wounds as the forces of the Daemon-haunted warp claw at their mind.

'Perils of the Warp' disregards the normal allocation rules. All wounds go on the psyker, with any remaining wounds being lost just as they would if you wiped out a unit.

Kinda like Gift of Chaos- You can't say the 3+d3 mortal wounds on a model pours over to the unit because it says that particular model takes the wounds.

Is there any way to clear this more "officially"?

Here we have two different opinions, so who is right?

It would be great if would be any way to contact GW and let them know these rules questions.

Perils does not allocate Wounds, it causes "the Psyker" to suffer the Wounds.

The other part of the issue is that the Rubric Marines are not "the Psyker". If Perils apply Wounds to "the Psyker", only "the Psyker" will be receiving damage. The D3 Wounds that come later would then be applied to the Rubric Marines, as they are within the specified range.

This is replicating a common confusion that I see in rule interpretations that combine models and units in the interpretations, when they are not the same level of organization whatsoever.

Some attacks inflict mortal wounds – these are so powerful that no armour or force field can withstand their fury. Each mortal wound
inflicts one point of damage on the target unit. Do not make a wound roll or saving throw (including invulnerable saves) against a
mortal wound – just allocate it as you would any other wound and inflict damage to a model in the target unit as described above.
Unlike normal attacks, excess damage from attacks that inflict mortal wounds is not lost. Instead keep allocating damage to another
model in the target unit until either all the damage has been allocated or the target unit is destroyed..
- Mortal Wounds.

This really is so strangely written when you consider that Mortal Wounds only ever inflict a single point of Damage on the target unit. After you allocate the Mortal Wound and kill a Model with a single Wound remaining... there is zero Damage remaining to 'bleed over' to the rest of the Unit. By telling us that each individual Mortal Wound inflicts one damage and we allocate them like other wounds... it has ensured the rest of the paragraph is either never going to be relevant or so situational that I am having a hard time picturing just what weapon it could be referring to....

Is there any weapon out there which has wording specifically stating it inflicts a single Mortal Wound of 1+x damage?
All the weapons that come to my mind say things along the lines of '...inflict 1d3 additional mortal wounds.'

 Warpspy wrote:
But in the rules for mortal wounds, i think it says that the 'extra' damage does not get lost, instead it passes onto the other models of the units, or did i get it wrong?

Rulebook wrote:[...] Unlike normal attacks, excess damage from attacks that inflict mortal wounds is not lost. Instead keep allocating damage to another model in the target unit until either all the damage has been allocated or the target unit is destroyed.

Besides, the sorcerer has only 1 wound, and there is no way he can ignore or save the damage from the 'perils' mortal wound, so is an auto-death if he gets a double 1 or double 6.

The leftover wound(s) from the mortal wound goes to the target unit. The other models are in different units, not the same unit as the sorcerer, so the extra wound(s) are lost.

 alienux wrote:

 Warpspy wrote:
But in the rules for mortal wounds, i think it says that the 'extra' damage does not get lost, instead it passes onto the other models of the units, or did i get it wrong?

Rulebook wrote:[...] Unlike normal attacks, excess damage from attacks that inflict mortal wounds is not lost. Instead keep allocating damage to another model in the target unit until either all the damage has been allocated or the target unit is destroyed.

Besides, the sorcerer has only 1 wound, and there is no way he can ignore or save the damage from the 'perils' mortal wound, so is an auto-death if he gets a double 1 or double 6.

The leftover wound(s) from the mortal wound goes to the target unit. The other models are in different units, not the same unit as the sorcerer, so the extra wound(s) are lost.

The Aspiring Sorcerer is a unit champion in a Rubric Marines unit. They're all in the same unit.

 Ghaz wrote:

 alienux wrote:

 Warpspy wrote:
But in the rules for mortal wounds, i think it says that the 'extra' damage does not get lost, instead it passes onto the other models of the units, or did i get it wrong?

Rulebook wrote:[...] Unlike normal attacks, excess damage from attacks that inflict mortal wounds is not lost. Instead keep allocating damage to another model in the target unit until either all the damage has been allocated or the target unit is destroyed.

Besides, the sorcerer has only 1 wound, and there is no way he can ignore or save the damage from the 'perils' mortal wound, so is an auto-death if he gets a double 1 or double 6.

The leftover wound(s) from the mortal wound goes to the target unit. The other models are in different units, not the same unit as the sorcerer, so the extra wound(s) are lost.

The Aspiring Sorcerer is a unit champion in a Rubric Marines unit. They're all in the same unit.

Ahh, thanks, I overlooked that part.

 Ghaz wrote:
From 'Perils of the Warp', page 178 of the main rulebook (emphasis added):

If you roll a double 1 or a double 6 when taking a Psychic test, the psyker immediately suffers Perils of the Warp. The psyker suffers D3 mortal wounds as the forces of the Daemon-haunted warp claw at their mind.

'Perils of the Warp' disregards the normal allocation rules. All wounds go on the psyker, with any remaining wounds being lost just as they would if you wiped out a unit.

Yes, but the Psyker in question is part of a unit, and the Mortal Wounds rules clearly tell us to continue allocating said wounds until they're all gone or the target unit is dead. I can see an argument for a full whiplash of psychic screwery there, but my gut tells me the intent is the psyker dies and then the unit rolls it's own D3 as being within 6" of the now dead AS. It's probably HIWPI too.

Larks wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
From 'Perils of the Warp', page 178 of the main rulebook (emphasis added):

If you roll a double 1 or a double 6 when taking a Psychic test, the psyker immediately suffers Perils of the Warp. The psyker suffers D3 mortal wounds as the forces of the Daemon-haunted warp claw at their mind.

'Perils of the Warp' disregards the normal allocation rules. All wounds go on the psyker, with any remaining wounds being lost just as they would if you wiped out a unit.

Yes, but the Psyker in question is part of a unit, and the Mortal Wounds rules clearly tell us to continue allocating said wounds until they're all gone or the target unit is dead. I can see an argument for a full whiplash of psychic screwery there, but my gut tells me the intent is the psyker dies and then the unit rolls it's own D3 as being within 6" of the now dead AS. It's probably HIWPI too.

And the 'Perils of the Warp' rule is more specific. So why are you ignoring 'Perils of the Warp' when it says 'the psyker' suffers the wounds and not 'the unit'?

 Ghaz wrote:

Larks wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
From 'Perils of the Warp', page 178 of the main rulebook (emphasis added):

If you roll a double 1 or a double 6 when taking a Psychic test, the psyker immediately suffers Perils of the Warp. The psyker suffers D3 mortal wounds as the forces of the Daemon-haunted warp claw at their mind.

'Perils of the Warp' disregards the normal allocation rules. All wounds go on the psyker, with any remaining wounds being lost just as they would if you wiped out a unit.

Yes, but the Psyker in question is part of a unit, and the Mortal Wounds rules clearly tell us to continue allocating said wounds until they're all gone or the target unit is dead. I can see an argument for a full whiplash of psychic screwery there, but my gut tells me the intent is the psyker dies and then the unit rolls it's own D3 as being within 6" of the now dead AS. It's probably HIWPI too.

And the 'Perils of the Warp' rule is more specific. So why are you ignoring 'Perils of the Warp' when it says 'the psyker' suffers the wounds and not 'the unit'?

Okay, but it doesn't say "not the unit", it just mentions the Psyker. So far, all is good, as a very large number of PSYKER models are also CHARACTERS, and can't be within a unit. The issue is when we have models like the AS in this example. Yes the Psyker takes D3 mortal wounds, but it does not give us permission to ignore all of the allocation rules - just identifies the initial target. Nor does it give us permission to ignore the rules found for mortal wounds.

Be clear I'm playing Devil's Advocate here. I think it's a little devastating personally. Though I can't see why these mortal wounds would suddenly not spill over - as there's no indication in Perils of the Warp or or the Rubric Marine datasheet to disregard the excess wounds in cases where the psyker is part of a unit.

The argument is thus, and although I am not entirely fond of it myself... the entire 'bleed over' clause makes no god damn sense to begin with!

The Rule requires us to allocate Mortal Wounds to the Aspiring Sorcerer as it is the Psyker Model
One Wound is allocated and it removes the Aspiring Sorcerer from play
The remaining Wounds are no longer able to be allocated, as they must be allocated to the Psyker Model

This causes the wounds to be lost before they reach the point of applying damage, so the clause telling us to bleed that damage into the rest of the Unit completely irreverent.

Again, it doesn't matter if the psyker is in a unit or not. The rule is clear. The psyker suffers the wounds and not the unit, yet you're still trying to have the unit suffer the wounds. It's not telling us who was targeted. It's as clear as day that it's telling us that the psyker suffers the wounds, not the unit.

Ghaz,
While this leads to some very broken, and clearly not at all intended, outcomes I still have to ask the question:
What Rule could we quote to prevent Perils from fully resolving against the "freshly deceased" Psyker?

From page 181 of the main rulebook:

If a model’s wounds are reduced to 0, it is either slain or destroyed and removed from play.

Wouldn't by its very definition have to be 'in play' to have wounds allocated to it? It would make for some seriously boring games if every time a unit takes a wound, it's allocated to that one model which has already been removed from play.

 Ghaz wrote:
Again, it doesn't matter if the psyker is in a unit or not. The rule is clear. The psyker suffers the wounds and not the unit, yet you're still trying to have the unit suffer the wounds. It's not telling us who was targeted. It's as clear as day that it's telling us that the psyker suffers the wounds, not the unit.

It's telling us the Psyker suffers mortal wounds, how is that not identifying a target? We also know mortal wounds continue to spill over in the target unit (per the rules for mortal wounds).

Where does it allow a Psyker suffering Perils to ignore the rules for mortal wounds?

- Pskyer suffers perils, rolls a 2
- Psyker suffers two mortal wounds, takes one and dies

One mortal wound left, and no indication whatsoever, ANYWHERE in the rules, to disregard this wound.

Agreed that it is removed from play, and I did mention broken outcomes if we take it to the extreme because Allocation doesn't mention 'living' Models, but the question still remains:
If a Rule told us to do X to a very specific Model, what line in the book would allow us to discard those instructions simply because the Model was just Removed from Play?

One of the reasons I am toying with this thought experiment is because I am trying to find the situation which that single point of damage could ever bleed over. As mentioned in a previous post, we go about Allocating Mortal Wounds like normal and each Mortal Wound causes a single point of damage. This means it should never be possible to enter into a situation where the Allocated Mortal Wound reduces a model to 0 while still having 'damage to resolve' afterwards. Any additional Wounds waiting to be Allocated to a Model are still going to function even without this clause, so just what bloody situation is it referring to?!

Just when we will ever have remaining Mortal Wound 'damage' to be resolved?

 JinxDragon wrote:
Agreed that it is removed from play, and I did mention broken outcomes if we take it to the extreme because Allocation doesn't mention 'living' Models, but the question still remains:
If a Rule told us to do X to a very specific Model, what line in the book would allow us to discard those instructions simply because the Model was just Removed from Play?


One of the reasons I am toying with this thought experiment is because I am trying to find the situation which that single point of damage could ever bleed over.... As mentioned in a previous post, we go about Allocating Mortal Wounds like normal and each Mortal Wound causes a single point of damage. This means it should never be possible to enter into a situation where the Allocated Mortal Wound reduces a model to 0 while still having 'damage to resolve' afterwards. Any additional Wounds waiting to be Allocated to a Model are still going to function even without this clause, so just what bloody situation is it referring to?!

Just when we will ever have remaining 'damage' to be resolved?

This could be a reach, but I imagine that it's merely an issue of not using more specific terms. In this context, I figure GW means that 2 Mortal Wounds is the "damage" in question, even though we know each Mortal Wound causes only 1 point of Damage, and thus it's impossible (like you state) to have excess from allocation of a single (or any) Mortal Wounds. Again, it's possibly a reach, but I anticipate that in the context of 1-wound models that suffer 3 MW, the extra 2 MW are the "damage to resolve".

Larks wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Again, it doesn't matter if the psyker is in a unit or not. The rule is clear. The psyker suffers the wounds and not the unit, yet you're still trying to have the unit suffer the wounds. It's not telling us who was targeted. It's as clear as day that it's telling us that the psyker suffers the wounds, not the unit.

It's telling us the Psyker suffers mortal wounds, how is that not identifying a target? We also know mortal wounds continue to spill over in the target unit (per the rules for mortal wounds).

Where does it allow a Psyker suffering Perils to ignore the rules for mortal wounds?

- Pskyer suffers perils, rolls a 2
- Psyker suffers two mortal wounds, takes one and dies

One mortal wound left, and no indication whatsoever, ANYWHERE in the rules, to disregard this wound.

'Perils of the Warp' is NOT a Shooting attack. It doesn't 'target' anything. What it does is exactly what it says, and that is the psyker (and NOT the unit the psyker is in) suffers D3 mortal wounds. Any other answer requires you to make up rules that simply do not exist.

 Ghaz wrote:

Larks wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Again, it doesn't matter if the psyker is in a unit or not. The rule is clear. The psyker suffers the wounds and not the unit, yet you're still trying to have the unit suffer the wounds. It's not telling us who was targeted. It's as clear as day that it's telling us that the psyker suffers the wounds, not the unit.

It's telling us the Psyker suffers mortal wounds, how is that not identifying a target? We also know mortal wounds continue to spill over in the target unit (per the rules for mortal wounds).

Where does it allow a Psyker suffering Perils to ignore the rules for mortal wounds?

- Pskyer suffers perils, rolls a 2
- Psyker suffers two mortal wounds, takes one and dies

One mortal wound left, and no indication whatsoever, ANYWHERE in the rules, to disregard this wound.

'Perils of the Warp' is NOT a Shooting attack. It doesn't 'target' anything. What it does is exactly what it says, and that is the psyker (and NOT the unit the psyker is in) suffers D3 mortal wounds. Any other answer requires you to make up rules that simply do not exist.

Shooting attack has absolutely nothing to do with it? Seriously, why even bring that up?

Mortal Wounds is the rule that indicates "target unit". Perils indicates who the target is. Finding the term "target" in the Shooting Phase section has zero bearing on the term as used in this context.

In addition, Mortal Wounds tells you that excess damage isn't lost, but continued to be allocated to the unit. Where is your permission to disregard this instruction?

You're the one who brought up targeting, which you do with a Shooting attack. So why did YOU bring it up? The only use of the word 'target' is not the rules meaning of 'target', but as in 'affected' and again that is only the psyker. Yet again you fail to understand that 'Perils of the Warp' in no way, shape or form affects anyone other than the psyker yet you continually ignore this fact.

 Ghaz wrote:
You're the one who brought up targeting, which you do with a Shooting attack. So why did YOU bring it up? The only use of the word 'target' is not the rules meaning of 'target', but as in 'affected' and again that is only the psyker. Yet again you fail to understand that 'Perils of the Warp' in no way, shape or form affects anyone other than the psyker yet you continually ignore this fact.

Perils of the Warp indeed, affects the Psyker.

Mortal Wounds tells us what to do with any excess that have killed said Psyker, as the Psyker and his unit are one.

Where is your permission to ignore the wording of Mortal Wounds?

Lark,
It is one of the reasons I keep questioning it as well... just what else could they be talking about?