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I'm so confused here.

BattleScribe lists the Blue Horrors for Herald of Tzeentch on Burning Chariot as costing 15 points, while the Blue Horrors on the Burning Chariot are free.

The relevant FAQ Question is this one, but it doesn't really address whether they cost points:

Q: If a Burning Chariot takes its option to be accompanied
by three Blue Horrors, does this mean I add three Blue Horror
models from the Horrors datasheet and form a mixed unit?
A: No. This option is referring to the optional Blue
Horror crew that come with the Burning Chariot kit and
are placed on top of the chariot alongside the Exalted
Flamer. If you have them, you simply get the benefits
listed in the Burning Chariot’s Irritating Chant ability.

You're right, GW have been spectacularly unhelpful about whether these models actually cost points or not. However, as the maintainer of the Chaos file on BS, I made the decision that they shouldn't have a cost based on the FAQ you quote.

However, it would appear that I forgot to change the Herald's chariot when I did the standard one. It'll be fixed in the next release.

Nobody knows. The blue horrors listed on the chariots are "wargear", but aren't listed in the index with a points value. Until GW come out with a FAQ there is no way to appropriately cost them when building your list in matched play.

Just for completeness, you will probably see people either arguing 0 points or 15 points.
People arguing 15 points reason that this is the cost of 3 x blue horror models. The error with this argument is that they are not wargear, rather as part of the horror unit. So their points don't apply for wargear
People arguing for 0 points reason that because it's not listed in wargear it is free. This is also incorrect, an omission of points doesn't mean it costs 0. Rather that it is unknown.

It bugs me that there have been two FAQs for Index: Chaos and this still hasn't been addressed.

This is so very very sloppy as they are effectively Models turned into War-gear, they are even in the Wargear Option section....

Logically, they must have a price or there would be no reason in putting them in as a war-gear option in the first place. All they do is grant the ability which states with the 'if accompanied by,' as evident by the Frequently Asked Question highlighting they are simply added to the chariot model itself. If this was a free option then it would be easier for the Author to simply leave off the 'if accompanied by,' and say the Rule is granted every time regardless. Yet I keep looking through books and guides and answers, trying to find out where it is specifically written what this Wargear Option costs in points. It would even make sense for it to cost less then the full price of three Blue Horrors, given it just grants access to a single ability on the Datasheet, but they just... won't... tell.... us!

Lots of Wargear has 0 cost so that doesn't follow.

Until any other word from GW, they do not cost anything.

15 feels like the most appropriate cost, given we are told they are 3 blue horrors, and that is the cost of 3 blue horrors. Could definitely use a faq to confirm.

If you invent a cost of 0 or 15 or something else you are not following the rules for points play.
pg: 214 under chose armies.

To use a points limit, you will need to reference the points values... simply add up the points values of all models and the weapons in your army, and make sure the total does not exceed the agreed limit for the game

@JohnnyHell and Captyn_Bob How do you purpose to follow the rules if you don't know the points value of the upgrade??


There was a similar discussion regarding the Death Guard DP wings https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/740423.page

This has come up before - if you search there are other threads about this. The wording of the GW post was such that if you have simply the Blue Horrors modelled you get the ability. It didn't mention any way of paying for it so unless they do you can't assume it costs.

Which post? GW make a lot of them. Until there is official word from GW we can't assume that they have a points value of 0. It is unknown and therefore an invalid choice for matched play (which annoys me and my 9 chariots).

A lot of the other threads that I have seen also come to the same conclusion that there isn't enough information to conclude they cost either 0 or 15 points or something else.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
This has come up before - if you search there are other threads about this. The wording of the GW post was such that if you have simply the Blue Horrors modelled you get the ability. It didn't mention any way of paying for it so unless they do you can't assume it costs.

It didn't mention paying for it, but it also did not mention NOT paying for it...

How do we interpret the fact that, unlike other armies, Daemon unit points cost are listed as "including wargear" (except the Daemon Prince, which is on a separate table that "does not include wargear")?

Would this not mean that no matter how you build a Daemon unit, all the wargear cost is included in its base cost?
So in order to buy the Blue horrors for either Chariot, you just... buy the Chariot.
Done

-

By that argument icons and banners are now free despite clearly having a points cost?

JhonnyHell,
War-gear options with the cost of 0 are designed to force you to choose between X, Y or Z
They may be attached to several 'equally basic' choices, all of which have a non-value so one doesn't become 'less valuable' by having a cost associated with it
They may also be the 'starting item,' the most basic piece of war-gear that many Models will have access to and be upgrading from
They might also be attached to an ability that has a obvious negative effect, so you have to umm and ahhh if you want to make the trade

So what choice is being made with the Blue Horrors if they are 0 points?


Galef,
How the **** did I overlook that?
Issue is a non-issue, cause the Blue Horrors in question could cost 100000 points and would still calculate to 130 points (for the Tzeenth version, others also have the same 'war-gear included' exception) when we do the maths....

This does mean, without further guidance, that it would be stupid not to take every piece of optional war-gear on all of these (war-gear included) models!
People do complain that Point Values have no inherent balancing ability and I guess (including Wargear) on Units with war-gear options further proves Game Workshop doesn't know what it is doing....

 JinxDragon wrote:
Galef,
How the **** did I overlook that?
Issue is a non-issue, cause the Blue Horrors in question could cost 100000 points and would still calculate to 130 points (for the Tzeenth version, others also have the same 'war-gear included' exception) when we do the maths....

This does mean, without further guidance, that it would be stupid not to take every piece of optional war-gear on all of these (war-gear included) models!
People do complain that Point Values have no inherent balancing ability and I guess (including Wargear) on Units with war-gear options further proves Game Workshop doesn't know what it is doing....

Wait, is this sarcasm or are you honestly advocating that most daemons don't need to pay for their optional wargear upgrades?

Because if so, outside of the Daemon Prince Weapons, that would mean all wargear is free (as the points for the model includes wargear) despite daemonic icons, instruments of chaos, rods of sorcery, and staves of change all clearly having an assigned points value.

So given the 'lack of information' all we have is HIWPI. I've given my view and it's cool to disagree with it, but there's nothing proving me wrong either. Decide with your group/opponent.

The other tangent on this thread won't go anywhere useful!

JakeSiren,
What else could (wargear included) mean?

There is a reason I am laughing over this; Game Workshop should never have used (Wargear included) on Models that have Wargear options, or at the very least ensured they didn't change the end cost. That is why I overlooked that all these Models are (Weargear Included) in the first place, because it was so damn obvious a mistake that I didn't realize Game Workshop had made it till Galaf pointed it out. To find a whole lot of Units with war-gear options, many that clearly change the price of the Model if we used the default continuations, is not just entertaining me greatly but is even more twisted then people realize: Game Workshop released errata that updated this very table!

Not only did they make this mistake in the first place, but on looking at the table they said 'oh, I see the problem... some of these numbers are wrong.'

While I don't disagree with you on that interpretation from a RAW standpoint, I would argue another interpretation being that the model comes with a default set of wargear and that is what is included in the "points per model (including wargear)". Any additional wargear is not included in the price of the model.

For example, a bloodletter with a hellblade is 7 points. To upgrade the bloodletter to have a daemonic icon it would cost 15 more points as it is not included in the model + default wargear.

I think both interpretations are reasonable to the letter, but you realize that one is not RAI once you start looking at costing wargear that is used only by units under the "points per model (including wargear)" header.

I have this question still in mind:
If (wargear included) simply means 'base combined cost,' why would the Authors calculate this for only a handful of Models?

What you are describing could have been a decent way to calculate a model cost, and very similar to previous edition's way of doing 'unit costs' so the players would have not even noticed the shift from Unit to Model. Of course, it makes no sense for the Authors to have a (weargear included) tag in any case, after providing us with clear instructions that we could use to calculate these costs for ourselves its inclusion only created additional complexity. It would have been far easier if we had simply been told to take a total of Model and Wargear costs to calculate the end cost of the Army, with the list having just the Model cost alone. We would still have problems in this particular case as the cost of the wargear in question was left off by error, but we wouldn't be trying to apply (wargear included) to nearly the entire Index:Chaos Daemon listings....

Still, agreed that it wouldn't make sense for the Authors to give us War-gear prices if we are never meant to use them!

 JinxDragon wrote:
I have this question still in mind:
If (wargear included) simply means 'base combined cost,' why would the Authors calculate this for only a handful of Models?

Because they employ drunken monkeys on their typewriters, or they plan on having varied costs later on.

They already have Varied cost Units, the default Rules cover how to calculate those.

The reason Daemon units are listed as "wargear included" is actually pretty smart. The VAST majority of Daemon units have no optional wargear at all, so why bother splittingup their "always included" wargear? You would have a list of options that all had 0 pts, which is a waste of ink.

The list of options that do exist are so few that it is only 4 commonly used choices. It makes sense to pay for these options, but where GW failed is not making it absolutely clear that these specific options ARE AN EXCEPTION to the included wargear of units.

RAW, you don't need to pay points for any optional wargear. RAI, you need to at least pay for Icons, Instruments, Staffs and Rods.
Blue Horrors on Chariots are probably at no cost considering the GW FAQ does not consider them to be separate models, but this is more HIWPI.

-

 Galef wrote:
The reason Daemon units are listed as "wargear included" is actually pretty smart. The VAST majority of Daemon units have no optional wargear at all, so why bother splittingup their "always included" wargear? You would have a list of options that all had 0 pts, which is a waste of ink.

The list of options that do exist are so few that it is only 4 commonly used choices. It makes sense to pay for these options, but where GW failed is not making it absolutely clear that these specific options ARE AN EXCEPTION to the included wargear of units.

RAW, you don't need to pay points for any optional wargear. RAI, you need to at least pay for Icons, Instruments, Staffs and Rods.
Blue Horrors on Chariots are probably at no cost considering the GW FAQ does not consider them to be separate models, but this is more HIWPI.

-

Or another way to put it, by RAW, you only have to pay points you are told to pay points for. Doing anything else is adding rules that are not in print.