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Thread title changed to something a bit more obvious.
Reds8n


Here is a link to the website. I am essentially talking about using units and options from the index when a codex has been released for that specific faction.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

Basically, a little bit down that page it has this quote:

There are a few options that are missing in the codex that appear in the index: why is that? Does that mean I can’t use these models in my army anymore?

While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).
They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army.

Is this an actual faq? Is it official?

Basically, we don't know. GW never clarified.

Because of this part:

Can I choose to use the rules and/or points for units from my index instead of the new ones in the codex once released?
In your own games, if you and your opponent agree, you can, of course, play with whatever rules you like.

In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets. It will also be assumed that you’re using the most up to date points for matched play, in this case, those included in the codex.

I am of the opinion that index entries are only valid if the codex has no exact same entry, but entries with a codex version supersede the index version. Because "No Model, No Rules" this makes some index entries totally illegalised.

This means no more Venerable Las/Auto dreads or Lasplas Rhinos, for example.

Basically, GW never told us clearly, they don't actually care, probably never WILL clarify and it's up to the you to decide pre-game, every game.

I would personally think that "the most up-to-date datasheet" would mean if the codex doesn't have one, then you use the index, because that is the most up-to-date datasheet.

An example:

Dreadnought - just the basic one for Space Marines

There is an Index entry, and there's a Codex entry.
You will always look to the Codex entry for it's stats, prices and abilities.
However there are options in the Index that didn't make it into the Codex, for example the ability to have a Twin Autocannon for each arm.

So you buy a Codex Dreadnought for 70 points. Since the Index tells us we're allowed to have a pair of Twin Autocannons, we then look to the Codex(!) and find out that a Twin Autocannon costs us 33 points, so we pay that twice, since we want a pair of them. We will, however, use the profile of the Twin Autocannon found in the Codex(!), not the one in the Index.

A different example:
Librarian on a Bike. There's no Codex entry for it, so you simply use the one from the Index for the model. When it comes to paying for it's equipment however, you check the Codex and use their pricings and stats.

nekooni wrote:

So you buy a Codex Dreadnought for 70 points. Since the Index tells us we're allowed to have a pair of Twin Autocannons, we then look to the Codex(!) and find out that a Twin Autocannon costs us 33 points, so we pay that twice, since we want a pair of them. We will, however, use the profile of the Twin Autocannon found in the Codex(!), not the one in the Index

Twin Autocannons are not in the codex at all, you need to use the points from the index for those.

ItsPug wrote:

nekooni wrote:

So you buy a Codex Dreadnought for 70 points. Since the Index tells us we're allowed to have a pair of Twin Autocannons, we then look to the Codex(!) and find out that a Twin Autocannon costs us 33 points, so we pay that twice, since we want a pair of them. We will, however, use the profile of the Twin Autocannon found in the Codex(!), not the one in the Index

Twin Autocannons are not in the codex at all, you need to use the points from the index for those.

Sorry, you're right. Then it that instance you'd stick with the profile from the Index, yes.

Nothing stops you using a quad-Autocannon Dreadnought, you just have to use Index Datasheet, rules and points for it, and not be playing against BCB... ;-)

I'm gonna be running my Rough Riders from the Index forever more... <sobs>

The Frequently Asked Question's answer specifically calls out ... certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box ....
This only makes sense if we account for older Datasheets with Wargear options that have changed over time.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Nothing stops you using a quad-Autocannon Dreadnought, you just have to use Index Datasheet, rules and points for it, and not be playing against BCB... ;-)

I'm gonna be running my Rough Riders from the Index forever more... <sobs>

The fact you are required to use the most up to date rules stops you.

Believe me I would like nothing more for this to be untrue, but it isn't. I'm not going to petulantly shout and have a meltdown because I don't get my way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I'm gonna be running my Rough Riders from the Index forever more... <sobs>

Except you can't do that as soon as they get an updated Codex Rough Rider datasheet.

Edit: Since they didn't make it into the codex (thanks GW), then of course you'd use the Index datasheet.

Riders didn't make the cut for the codex. Sad times

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Nothing stops you using a quad-Autocannon Dreadnought, you just have to use Index Datasheet, rules and points for it, and not be playing against BCB... ;-)

I'm gonna be running my Rough Riders from the Index forever more... <sobs>

The fact you are required to use the most up to date rules stops you.

Believe me I would like nothing more for this to be untrue, but it isn't. I'm not going to petulantly shout and have a meltdown because I don't get my way.

More precisely, other players may not play against you if you are not using the most up to date rules. Every game is an agreement between the players, and they can change the rule to suit them. Most do prefer the latest rules as they are the most consistent ones.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Nothing stops you using a quad-Autocannon Dreadnought, you just have to use Index Datasheet, rules and points for it, and not be playing against BCB... ;-)

I'm gonna be running my Rough Riders from the Index forever more... <sobs>

The fact you are required to use the most up to date rules stops you.

Believe me I would like nothing more for this to be untrue, but it isn't. I'm not going to petulantly shout and have a meltdown because I don't get my way.

And again, I disagree with your interpretation. They've said no models are invalidated. There are rules for a quad Autocannon Dread in the Index. The fact there is a new Datasheet for the currently-produced models in the Codex doesn't negate the fact that the Index Datasheet can be used to represent legacy models. The most up to date rules for a quad Autocannon Dread are in the Index, so use 'em. I know you disagree so I shan't needle you further on this; I just don't want there to be one voice telling people they can't use their models when in the view of others they can.

My only opinion on this is if you pick a model that only has the specific war gear loadout avaliable from the indexes you pay full index prices. So for example if you have a librarian in term armor with force axe and storm shield you pay all prices from index, you don't use the index Data card then pay codexes prices for it. Think of it as an index tax if you want, I think it's fair and really not that big a deal in the long run.

Another example : my land speeder with dual heavy flamers is 114 pts in the index. Using codex prices it's 104 pts, except it's not legal loadout in codex. I think of it as matinence costs to keep the "older tech" still working. And 10pts won't break me any.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Nothing stops you using a quad-Autocannon Dreadnought, you just have to use Index Datasheet, rules and points for it, and not be playing against BCB... ;-)

I'm gonna be running my Rough Riders from the Index forever more... <sobs>

The fact you are required to use the most up to date rules stops you.

Believe me I would like nothing more for this to be untrue, but it isn't. I'm not going to petulantly shout and have a meltdown because I don't get my way.

And again, I disagree with your interpretation. They've said no models are invalidated. There are rules for a quad Autocannon Dread in the Index. The fact there is a new Datasheet for the currently-produced models in the Codex doesn't negate the fact that the Index Datasheet can be used to represent legacy models. The most up to date rules for a quad Autocannon Dread are in the Index, so use 'em. I know you disagree so I shan't needle you further on this; I just don't want there to be one voice telling people they can't use their models when in the view of others they can.

The model "Dreadnought" has not been invalidated. The options it can take are. You still have to follow the datasheets with the most recent datasheet being the valid one. A dread can only purchase the options it's datasheet says it can purchase. The codex datasheet for dread is the one you have to use unless your opponent decides to let you pull the 2 book shenanigans that are being proposed here. You don't get to pick and choose which parts of which datasheet you want to use (the stats and costs from here but the options from there, but the prices and profiles from here!).

Rough Riders on the other hand have no new datasheet. So the MODEL is not invalidated. You simply use the most recent datasheet (index) which spells out all it's prices and options. If any of the RRs options are in the codex you use the codex prices and profiles since those are the most recent.

This discussion seems to come up alot both here and elsewhere, like most rules issues it is caused by some sloppy and not as definitive as it should be rules writing.

The codex FAQ issued by GW (linked in the OP) is the only source of rulings we have for this atm and until they clarify it further that's all we have to go on.

Those that believe you can used index datasheets for units with updated codex datasheets to gain access to weapons options that are not included in the stock model kit and thus not included in the codex point to the following as permission to do so:

There are a few options that are missing in the codex that appear in the index: why is that? Does that mean I can’t use these models in my army anymore?
While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).
They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army.

Those that believe you can't use the index datasheet for units with updated codex datasheets at all point to the following:

Can I choose to use the rules and/or points for units from my index instead of the new ones in the codex once released?
In your own games, if you and your opponent agree, you can, of course, play with whatever rules you like.

In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets. It will also be assumed that you’re using the most up to date points for matched play, in this case, those included in the codex.

These two posts can clearly be used to argue the RAW in both ways as they are written badly. When this is the case I personally think you have to go with what you believe the intention of the rules to be.

Obviously intent is highly open to interpretation but I would think that most people reading the two extracts from the faq would agree that the following section is the most clear statement of intent (as that is what it is!):

While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).

This tells us that the rules in the codex's only cover the models they currently produce and that they know people have older models which they still want us to be able to use and that the index gives the rules for such models. Pretty clear intent.

When it comes down to rules disputes some common sense is needed, if one interpretation causes lovingly crafted models to be unusable and the other doesn't I don't see any reason to choose the first unless it causes some harm to the game through breaking the spirit or balance of the game which this clearly doesn't.
We have to remember that GW don't write the rules as a legal document and they are not intended to be interpreted as such, we are assumed to be able to use common sense.

BRB Page 174 'Codexes' boxout wrote:
...when you buy a box of Citadel Miniatures, they [the datasheets] will be in the box with them

Has anyone found this to be the case yet for 8th edition, and more to the point has anyone found contradictions therein?

 Lance845 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Nothing stops you using a quad-Autocannon Dreadnought, you just have to use Index Datasheet, rules and points for it, and not be playing against BCB... ;-)

I'm gonna be running my Rough Riders from the Index forever more... <sobs>

The fact you are required to use the most up to date rules stops you.

Believe me I would like nothing more for this to be untrue, but it isn't. I'm not going to petulantly shout and have a meltdown because I don't get my way.

And again, I disagree with your interpretation. They've said no models are invalidated. There are rules for a quad Autocannon Dread in the Index. The fact there is a new Datasheet for the currently-produced models in the Codex doesn't negate the fact that the Index Datasheet can be used to represent legacy models. The most up to date rules for a quad Autocannon Dread are in the Index, so use 'em. I know you disagree so I shan't needle you further on this; I just don't want there to be one voice telling people they can't use their models when in the view of others they can.

The model "Dreadnought" has not been invalidated. The options it can take are. You still have to follow the datasheets with the most recent datasheet being the valid one. A dread can only purchase the options it's datasheet says it can purchase. The codex datasheet for dread is the one you have to use unless your opponent decides to let you pull the 2 book shenanigans that are being proposed here. You don't get to pick and choose which parts of which datasheet you want to use (the stats and costs from here but the options from there, but the prices and profiles from here!).

Rough Riders on the other hand have no new datasheet. So the MODEL is not invalidated. You simply use the most recent datasheet (index) which spells out all it's prices and options. If any of the RRs options are in the codex you use the codex prices and profiles since those are the most recent.

Not suggesting any 'shenanigans', thanks. Just using the Index profile and costs for a unit only represented by the Index.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 malamis wrote:

BRB Page 174 'Codexes' boxout wrote:
...when you buy a box of Citadel Miniatures, they [the datasheets] will be in the box with them

Has anyone found this to be the case yet for 8th edition, and more to the point has anyone found contradictions therein?

The build instructions have the Datasheet but no points, just Power level.