Opinions on the power level of the new IG codex (Poll thread)

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**Perth**

As someone that plays IG as a secondary army, personally the leaks (all but verified now with multiple youtubers reading directly from the codex) have caused me to shelf my IG for all but the most competitive games. I believe they've gotten to the point of so many units hitting above their weight that to make a casual list with guard hamstrings the army to the point that it becomes not fun to play, which is perhaps a meta problem, but not the point of this thread.

The buffs that IG got in their codex have (in my opinion) raised the bar on what was already the strongest tournament army. I know people will say that conscripts got nerfed (not in how they were used to win games, they're still large blob, three point, morale immune infantry walls) and that Scions got more expensive (a firepower per point reduction on Plasma specifically, they're still great DS troops and Plasma is still worth it), and that FW Earthshaker batteries carried the lists (Catachan basilisks are 28 points more expensive, for a huge increase in firepower, durability, the ability to move, and not being reliant on crew).

Personally I'm hopeful that the lead time on the printing of the book just simply meant GW didn't have time to really look at tournament results (because let's be honest, guard were not extensively play tested before 8th) and that Chapter Approved will be a simpler paperback with less lead time so will more accurately fix the units that are causing trouble.

Well, that wasn't as much of a rant as I was expecting. Anyway, what is your opinion of the IG codex from a power perspective?

I will admit it is a nice book for customization with guard finally getting regiment bonuses, I just think too many things are too good for the points.

**Gamgee**

Agreed they are extremely op.

**Tyr13**

Isnt it a bit early for this? I mean, yeah, its definitely powerful, but its hard to gauge *how* powerful at this point. JUst look at the first thoughts on the index lists. Hardly anyone mentioned how strong conscripts would be, and now...

Just give it time, play a few games, you can still complain about it being OP afterwards.

**Blacksails**

Is the full codex out? Do we have all the point values and stat lines?

**Galas**

Even if they have buffed conscripts with all the regiments ,doctrines, etc... to a point that the nerfs are innefective, the fact that they have made many other builds for Imperial Guard viable will be translated that in total (Maybe not in the most competitive-competitive tournaments) you will see much less infantry and conscripts spam now that Baneblades (I'll arguee this ones didn't need the 40 point drop with the other two buffs they reveiced) , Leman Russes, Valkiries, are much more viable.

I hate when people say that "whole" factions are OP. Thats how you end with 8th edition's Tau. A unplayable army because the whole faction was nerfed besides some outliers that in a totally arbitrary way are very strong (Commanders, Gun drones, Vespids), that makes you hate your own army because you go the Flyrant way or go home.

**Perth**

Mutliple full reviews are up on youtube, all changes have been documented, off the top of my head.

Baneblades of all types got 40 points cheaper, buffed main guns (except Stormlords) and can move without penalty.

Ogryn shields are now just +2 to your save rolls, of any type.

Valkyries got cheaper and can move without accuracy penalty if hovering.

Basilisks went from AP -2 to AP -3 (probably what most upsets me, already a top tier tournament unit)

+ Relics, Tactics, Strats, Ect...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyr13 wrote:
Isnt it a bit early for this? I mean, yeah, its definitely powerful, but its hard to gauge *how* powerful at this point. JUst look at the first thoughts on the index lists. Hardly anyone mentioned how strong conscripts would be, and now...

Just give it time, play a few games, you can still complain about it being OP afterwards.

The thing is, we've already been playing it. Very little functionally changed from the index, conscripts being max 30 is the biggest, but still more than enough to wrap a gunline with. Everything just got a nice buff from Regiment tactics for free as well as some alt unit buffs. IG were a problem as an index and show signs of only getting worse with the codex.

I agree we don't know exactly how bad yet, but I think most of us are in agreement that they are definitely stronger, which just widens the gap.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Galas wrote:
Even if they have buffed conscripts with all the regiments ,doctrines, etc... to a point that the nerfs are innefective, the fact that they have made many other builds for Imperial Guard viable will be translated that in total (Maybe not in the most competitive-competitive tournaments) you will see much less infantry and conscripts spam now that Baneblades (I'll arguee this ones didn't need the 40 point drop with the other two buffs they reveiced) , Leman Russes, Valkiries, are much more viable.

I hate when people say that "whole" factions are OP. Thats how you end with 8th edition's Tau. A unplayable army because the whole faction was nerfed besides some outliers that in a totally arbitrary way are very strong (Commanders, Gun drones, Vespids), that makes you hate your own army because you go the Flyrant way or go home.

I get what you're saying, and although I do think the average unit power in the IG codex is a bit too high, the problem is the outliers.

However, I made this thread from the mindset of encountering them at a tournament, where the outliers are almost all you can expect to see.

Also I know that that's what you can expect from tournaments, the top of the top, and I don't think anyone expects the game to ever be highly balanced in a tournament setting, but all we want is the gap to close a bit instead of getting wider.

**Elbows**

Eh, it sounds pretty potent. However the incalculable value of Imperial Soup means that it'll likely form a large component of Tournament lists in the future.

As always, comes down to the person you're playing. But, from a simple power standpoint - I've seen nothing that hinders it, and the previous Index was already very stout. Index based armies will be getting their teeth kicked in for several months, but that's to be expected. I'm not one to worry about "broken" lists because I simply won't play those folks.

**Galas**

Perth wrote:

Galas wrote:
Even if they have buffed conscripts with all the regiments ,doctrines, etc... to a point that the nerfs are innefective, the fact that they have made many other builds for Imperial Guard viable will be translated that in total (Maybe not in the most competitive-competitive tournaments) you will see much less infantry and conscripts spam now that Baneblades (I'll arguee this ones didn't need the 40 point drop with the other two buffs they reveiced) , Leman Russes, Valkiries, are much more viable.

I hate when people say that "whole" factions are OP. Thats how you end with 8th edition's Tau. A unplayable army because the whole faction was nerfed besides some outliers that in a totally arbitrary way are very strong (Commanders, Gun drones, Vespids), that makes you hate your own army because you go the Flyrant way or go home.

I get what you're saying, and although I do think the average unit power in the IG codex is a bit too high, the problem is the outliers.

However, I made this thread from the mindset of encountering them at a tournament, where the outliers are almost all you can expect to see.

Also I know that that's what you can expect from tournaments, the top of the top, and I don't think anyone expects the game to ever be highly balanced in a tournament setting, but all we want is the gap to close a bit instead of getting wider.

And I can understand the desire of making the outliers more balanced. But people is repeating the mantra that literally everything is OP, or saying that some units are bad as a token, but the reality is that nearly everything in the IG codex is viable! And if the not conscript, Scions, Commisars, probably some Baneblade variants, etc... seems OP, is not because they are truly OP but because in general other armies don't have this kind of viable units and many of them are just pretty bad, even if they have units that are better than IG ones.
For example, Infantry Squads are pretty good, but not better than Tau Gundrones, and probably are on par with Ork Boyz (Everyone in their own ways). Leman Russes where mediocre, now they seem to be playable and viable. Not OP. Other tanks like Hammerheads or Skyrais are pretty damm terrible. They should buff the others, not nerf Leman Russes to the point of making them a no-choice vs Infantry spam with Conscripts, Scions, Manticores, etc...

**NurglesR0T**

Blacksails wrote:
Is the full codex out? Do we have all the point values and stat lines?

Several early previews have confirmed that several point cost decreases across all the units you'll regularly see.

It's definitely a powerful book but I don't think it's broken 8th - leave that for the Eldar codex

I'm in the wait and see camp for when it is released. Once several games are played counter tactics should start popping up everywhere. One thing I noticed in the battle report from TTT, once the DG closed into assault ranges and started locking up several of IG tanks, their firepower (whilst still good) was greatly diminished.

**Dionysodorus**

I'm not really sure how we're interpreting "overpowered", so a longer reply follows:

I do think that the best pure Guard armies are likely to be a lot better than the best armies any other solo faction can put together. I'm sure that Guard units will continue to be an important part of Imperial Soup, and the best Imperial Soup armies will continue to be top-tier in competitive play. But as with any discussion of "the best armies" possible, this is going to be about a pretty small part of the codex. It wouldn't take that much to make them not the best solo faction or not the main contributor to the Imperial Soup problem. Really the only units that I see that seems likely to be way too good is Conscripts, artillery spam, and maybe some of the Baneblades (it's hard to have a sense of just how all these buffs will play out). Lots of other stuff just seems solid, in a good way. The doctrines all seem fine. The stratagems themselves seem fine, though it's concerning how much CP Guard armies get to play with. And, yeah, the warlord traits and relics are a combination of the best stuff we've seen everywhere else so far.

I would also agree with the OP that a casual Guard list is likely to be pretty potent. Yes, probably massed artillery and Conscripts are still stupidly good, but you also do really well with Infantry and Russes and maybe a Baneblade. Bullgryn look great. Scions are likely to still be perfectly decent. Ratlings remain some of the best snipers in the game. And if you bring a pretty eclectic set of new Guard units to a game with someone who's brought an eclectic set of Orks or Tau or Eldar or Necrons or really even Space Marines and Chaos you're going to wipe the floor with them. But... this isn't really a bad thing. Surely it's good that huge swathes of the codex don't look simply terrible compared to the good stuff in the codex. You should be able to bring most of the stuff in your codex without handicapping yourself too much. I wouldn't wish Dire Avengers on my worst enemy. And I hope the casual stuff in other codices turns out to be as good.

**Galas**

I can agree that Warlord Traits and Relics is probably the part of the Codex where I'll say "Yeah, this is not balanced, this is just full of very, very good stuff". So probably they should rebalance those too.

**Blacksails**

NurglesR0T wrote:
Blacksails wrote:
Is the full codex out? Do we have all the point values and stat lines?

Several early previews have confirmed that several point cost decreases across all the units you'll regularly see.

It's definitely a powerful book but I don't think it's broken 8th - leave that for the Eldar codex

I'm in the wait and see camp for when it is released. Once several games are played counter tactics should start popping up everywhere. One thing I noticed in the battle report from TTT, once the DG closed into assault ranges and started locking up several of IG tanks, their firepower (whilst still good) was greatly diminished.

Yeah, I digged up some info, seems like most of the info is out there.

Definitely an almost universal upgrade. Personally liking the return of combined squads and Russes being able to fire twice.

**Pancakey**

Guard is the new Eldar.

**NurglesR0T**

Pancakey wrote:
Guard is the new Eldar.

So would that make the eventual new Eldar the new Guard?

Expecting Orks to come out of no where and break the game

**MarsNZ**

No codex in hand yet and ~80% of the game is still running out of their index lists.

It's definitely time to jump to conclusions, the broader the better.

**Inquisitor Lord Katherine**

Well, they nerfed the good units and buffed the bad units, but the bad units are still worse than the nerfed state of the good units, so it's transitively less overpowered than it is now.

**Pancakey**

Everything; we have it
Las shots, one million
Destroy you with morter spam
All moral will be passed
Reserve plasma whip cream

Halflife 3 confirmed.

**MechaEmperor7000**

I love how people are claiming IG are the best solo Index list when it's only Conscripts and Scions in soup lists that are really OP.

By that logic, Tau should be even more OP since you can't even ally them to ther people and Quadfusion Commanders are awesome.

And no one even brings up the Tyranids, who actually have viable units in every slot that are hilariously powerful (most of which I use).

You know what, I actually dread the Tyranids release now, because people will only remember them to complain about them.

**Galas**

Man, those damned Genestealer, they where OP and now they have all those stratagem and Hive Fleet buffs! Tyranid-soup OP! Nerf, nerf!
You can even ally Tyranids with Imperial Guard with just a GSC-token detachment! Tyranid-Imperial Soup OP!

**MechaEmperor7000**

I actually completely forgot GSC can mix nid and IG stuff. Now I dread the Nid release even more.

**Galas**

Conscript spam protecting artillery spam. You want to charge them? Bad for you, take 30-genestealers in your face!

**pinecone77**

Galas wrote:
Man, those damned Genestealer, they where OP and now they have all those stratagem and Hive Fleet buffs! Tyranid-soup OP! Nerf, nerf!
You can even ally Tyranids with Imperial Guard with just a GSC-token detachment! Tyranid-Imperial Soup OP!

**MechaEmperor7000**

Galas wrote:
Conscript spam protecting artillery spam. You want to charge them? Bad for you, take 30-genestealers in your face!

They have a Masters degree in Facial reconstruction surgery. By the codex, it will be a Doctorate!

**Lance845**

Can we please save these polls for about 2 weeks after the codex actually releases so people can get a chance to 1) have the actual book and 2) play some games?

**MechaEmperor7000**

Clearly not, because the internet has already rendered judgement before the first game has even been played.

Seriously, this hysteria over the IG has gotten way out of hand.

**NurglesR0T**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Clearly not, because the internet has already rendered judgement before the first game has even been played.

Seriously, this hysteria over the IG has gotten way out of hand.

it wouldn't be a IG post if the sky wasn't falling though

**Insectum7**

Like others have said, too early to tell.

From what I've read they've toned down the "auto-takes" and buffed the "not as competetive", sooo like, exactly what you'd want.

But give it at least a month or two before seeing how gnarly it is. Knee-jerking is way to easy.

**argonak**

It's not even out yet. For crying out loud.

**Arachnofiend**

MarsNZ wrote:
No codex in hand yet and ~80% of the game is still running out of their index lists.

It's definitely time to jump to conclusions, the broader the better.

Remember when everyone was "jumping to conclusions" about the issues with conscripts and plasma scions? Right.

**Galas**

Arachnofiend wrote:
MarsNZ wrote:
No codex in hand yet and ~80% of the game is still running out of their index lists.

It's definitely time to jump to conclusions, the broader the better.

Remember when everyone was "jumping to conclusions" about the issues with conscripts and plasma scions? Right.

This is a little "Post hoc ergo propter hoc". Many people flipped the table about Necrons, aboud Berzerkers, Ork Boyz, about Genestealers, about Noisy Marines. And even if some of those units are good, they wheren't broken. Now is easy to ignore the ones that failed to predicted what where gonna be OP and stick with the 1-2 ones that where right.