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So say I make up my own chapter called the 'Falcon Guardians', a successor chapter to the Raven Guard. They fight just like the Raven Guard so I use the Raven Guard CT, Strats, Etc. To do this I simply replace all instances of <chapter> with RAVEN GUARD. I tell my opponent before every game this is my chapter, they're the 'Falcon Guardians' in the fluff but for all intents and purposes they're Raven Guard and have the RAVEN GUARD keyword.

Easy.

But then tomorrow I decide to use my Raptors chapter Space Marine army instead. These guys have the keyword RAPTORS, and according to the codex for chapters that don't have tactics one is allowed to choose which tactics best suit the faction. So of course I choose Raven Guard. But then I can't actually benefit from the raven guard tactics because the tactics apply to RAVEN GUARD models and not RAPTORS models. But unlike my made up 'Falcon Guardians', I can't just use the RAVEN GUARD keyword because there are characters and buffs in my army that use the keyword RAPTORS.

Now it seems very likely the intent here was that I replace all instance of RAVEN GUARD (for example) with RAPTORS, but it never actually says this and there is still confusion when it comes to models that inherently have a specific <keyword>, such as Shrike. Can my Raptors force use Shrike as well? Technically it seems like my Raptors won't even be able to benefit from the Chapter Tactics...

Now I believe this may issue may be amended in more recent publications as the Admech codex refers to 'units with this dogma...' instead of the specific <keywords>.

Yes, the RAW here appears to be kind of a mess. Clearly the rules intend for you to be able to use the Raven Guard rules by replacing <CHAPTER> with FALCON GUARDIANS, but this doesn't appear to work. Though as you note you can just do counts-as RAVEN GUARD and be fine.

Of course this doesn't work when you want to bring in a specific character who already has a non- RAVEN GUARD chapter keyword. You definitely can't use Shrike with your RAPTORS. Or at least, you can't treat RAPTORS as interchangeable with RAVEN GUARD so Shrike won't buff RAPTORS and Lias won't work with Shrike.

I think you're right that, RAW, the tactics don't work for you either, but it is beyond obvious that the intent here is that they can work for custom chapters. You're definitely supposed to be able to have a tactic that actually does something for your SPACE PONIES chapter. The only question is whether you can pick "RAPTORS" and therefore also access other buffs. This seems related to the question of whether Death Korps of Krieg and Elysians get doctrines with the new Guard codex (which has a lengthy thread on this page), although the Marine codex is a little more restrictive in that it explicitly says that there are things you're not allowed to replace <CHAPTER> with (but does not provide an exhaustive list).

I'd just keep it as simple as possible, so HIWPI is:

If you play a non-standard chapter, you play a standard chapter period. that means your Ultramarine successor chapter can use Ultramarine characters, but you'd probably assign a custom name to them.

If you play a non-standard chapter that has additional datasheets, e.g. from the FW index, you play Raptors, but play as if they're e.g. Ultramarines. The major difference here is that you can't pick up Ultramarine characters. You use your Raptor characters and all the generic datasheets only.

Basically you have to use any FW forces as a index army until FW tells you otherwise. Your other option is to use them as proxies for a Codex army which means you have to use the codex armies unique characters instead of the FW ones.

 Lance845 wrote:
Basically you have to use any FW forces as a index army until FW tells you otherwise. Your other option is to use them as proxies for a Codex army which means you have to use the codex armies unique characters instead of the FW ones.

This is indeed correct.

For further reading I would direct you to the post I made previously on the matter.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/737088.page#9565717

Wait what? They're not a new list like dkok or elysians, why would you bring that up?
And the post bacon links to talks about using chapter tactics, those aren't in the index at all.

I play it like a named chapter minus named characters and specific chapter relics. Just replace the relevant keywords.

Lord-celestent Putin wrote:
So say I make up my own chapter called the 'Falcon Guardians', a successor chapter to the Raven Guard. They fight just like the Raven Guard so I use the Raven Guard CT, Strats, Etc. To do this I simply replace all instances of <chapter> with RAVEN GUARD. I tell my opponent before every game this is my chapter, they're the 'Falcon Guardians' in the fluff but for all intents and purposes they're Raven Guard and have the RAVEN GUARD keyword.

No, you dont... you replace any <Chapter> with FALCON GUARDIANS! (pg. 130) and tell your opponent, that they are a successor chapter of the Raven Guard.

Lord-celestent Putin wrote:

But then tomorrow I decide to use my Raptors chapter Space Marine army instead. These guys have the keyword RAPTORS, and according to the codex for chapters that don't have tactics one is allowed to choose which tactics best suit the faction. So of course I choose Raven Guard. But then I can't actually benefit from the raven guard tactics because the tactics apply to RAVEN GUARD models and not RAPTORS models.

You actually can because
If your chapter does not have any associated stratagems, you can use the stratagems of its founding chapter. For example, Crimson Fists are a successor chapter of the Imperial Fists, so you can use the Bolter Drill stratagem to affect a CRIMSON FIST INFANTRY unit just as if were an IMPERIAL FIST unit. (pg. 196)
Meaning your RAPTORS benefit as if they were RAVEN GUARD (without actually being RAVEN GUARD!)

Lord-celestent Putin wrote:

But unlike my made up 'Falcon Guardians', I can't just use the RAVEN GUARD keyword because there are characters and buffs in my army that use the keyword RAPTORS.

Your made up Falcon Guardians cannot use the RAVEN GUARD keyword either and you do not need to use the RAVEN GUARD keyword for them to benefit because the rule says you FALCON GUARDIANS / RAPTORS are affected just if they were RAVEN GUARD!

Lord-celestent Putin wrote:

Now it seems very likely the intent here was that I replace all instance of RAVEN GUARD (for example) with RAPTORS, but it never actually says this and there is still confusion when it comes to models that inherently have a specific <keyword>, such as Shrike.

No, it doesnt seem like that... it is very clear on what you can/have to do and on what not! Just read the rules and dont make up stuff which you find "logical".

Lord-celestent Putin wrote:

Can my Raptors force use Shrike as well? Technically it seems like my Raptors won't even be able to benefit from the Chapter Tactics...

You totally muddle up with the correct terms here...

Assuming we are talking about battle forged armies there is no such thing as a "Raptors force"... A force is usually all units a player brings to the table and which is made of (a) detachment(s).
A detachment can mix different units which atleast share one faction keyword (for example IMPERIUM) but in that case you dont get any benefit from any stratagems (besides the ones from the BRB), chapter tactics or equivalents, etc...
If you want your Space Marines units in any detachment to benefit from all this stuff, every unit in that detachment must be drawn from a single chapter - this is then called a "Space Marine Detachment" (pg. 194)

So, comming back to your question:
In a mixed up detachment you can use a Raptors character (like Lias Issodon or a Raptors Librarian) aswell as Shrike and also a Captain from your Falcon Guardians and even a Platoon Commander from Astra Militarum or an Imperial Assassin... the result is that neither of them (nor any other unit in that detachment) can use/will benefit from chapter tactics or stratagems etc.!
In a Space Marine detachment on the other hand you can use Lias Issodon if the chapter is RAPTORS or Shrike if the chapter is RAVEN GUARD or a Falcon Guardians Captain if your chapter ist FALCON GUARDIANS.
You cannot use Lias Issodon nor Shrike in a FALCON GUARDIANS detachment... so, if you want to play any named character in a Space Marine detachment, you have to stick to the chapter he belongs to!
But you still can have for example Lias Issodon and Shrike in the same force without using a mixed detachment! Just take one RAPTORS detachment including Lias Issodon and one RAVEN GUARD detachment including Shrike!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
Basically you have to use any FW forces as a index army until FW tells you otherwise. Your other option is to use them as proxies for a Codex army which means you have to use the codex armies unique characters instead of the FW ones.

Made up ruling again?
Example: I want to add Lias Issodon from FW "Imperial Armour Adeptus Astrates" to my Space Marine detachment from "Codex Space Marine"... please quote me (with page)the according rule from either book where it says I cannot do so! Alternativly show me an official FAQ where it says I cannot do so.

Dionysodorus wrote:
Yes, the RAW here appears to be kind of a mess. Clearly the rules intend for you to be able to use the Raven Guard rules by replacing <CHAPTER> with FALCON GUARDIANS, but this doesn't appear to work. Though as you note you can just do counts-as RAVEN GUARD and be fine.

Of course this doesn't work when you want to bring in a specific character who already has a non- RAVEN GUARD chapter keyword. You definitely can't use Shrike with your RAPTORS. Or at least, you can't treat RAPTORS as interchangeable with RAVEN GUARD so Shrike won't buff RAPTORS and Lias won't work with Shrike

Uhm, no you dont?! (And there is not a single rule telling you that you have to...)

People should actually just read the rules in the SM codex!
The rules clearly say that you replace <chapter> with whatever chapter you choose and not to replace it with one of the first founding chapters!
The rules also clearly say that later founding (or made up) chapters use the chapter tactics / stratagems of the first founding chapters and that you treat affected units as if they were from the according first founding chapter!
"as if they were" does not mean "they are!" and certainly not "change every units keyword to the according first founding chapter!"

highwind01 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Basically you have to use any FW forces as a index army until FW tells you otherwise. Your other option is to use them as proxies for a Codex army which means you have to use the codex armies unique characters instead of the FW ones.

Made up ruling again?
Example: I want to add Lias Issodon from FW "Imperial Armour Adeptus Astrates" to my Space Marine detachment from "Codex Space Marine"... please quote me (with page)the according rule from either book where it says I cannot do so! Alternativly show me an official FAQ where it says I cannot do so.

There is no rule that says you cannot do something. 40k is a permission based rule set. You would need a rule that directly tells you you CAN do something. Which you don't have. FW forces have never been a part of Codex: Space Marine. They have always been their own armies in the same way that Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves are. We have no permission to treat Red Scorpions as part of the SM codex so we have no permission to treat them as a successor or home brew and use the Chapter Tactics, relics, and strategems from those chapters. Until FW says otherwise you cannot use SM codex rules with FW armies.

highwind01 wrote:

Uhm, no you dont?! (And there is not a single rule telling you that you have to...)

People should actually just read the rules in the SM codex!
The rules clearly say that you replace <chapter> with whatever chapter you choose and not to replace it with one of the first founding chapters!
The rules also clearly say that later founding (or made up) chapters use the chapter tactics / stratagems of the first founding chapters and that you treat affected units as if they were from the according first founding chapter!
"as if they were" does not mean "they are!" and certainly not "change every units keyword to the according first founding chapter!"

I don't have the codex handy at the moment but my recollection is that you're only told to use the stratagems as if they were one of the founding chapters. You're not told to do something like this for the tactics. So the RAW problem I was pointing to is that your RAPTORS guys get the Raven Guard Tactic, but this only does anything for RAVEN GUARD units.

Dionysodorus wrote:

highwind01 wrote:

Uhm, no you dont?! (And there is not a single rule telling you that you have to...)

People should actually just read the rules in the SM codex!
The rules clearly say that you replace <chapter> with whatever chapter you choose and not to replace it with one of the first founding chapters!
The rules also clearly say that later founding (or made up) chapters use the chapter tactics / stratagems of the first founding chapters and that you treat affected units as if they were from the according first founding chapter!
"as if they were" does not mean "they are!" and certainly not "change every units keyword to the according first founding chapter!"

I don't have the codex handy at the moment but my recollection is that you're only told to use the stratagems as if they were one of the founding chapters. You're not told to do something like this for the tactics. So the RAW problem I was pointing to is that your RAPTORS guys get the Raven Guard Tactic, but this only does anything for RAVEN GUARD units.

Page 195 Codex: Adeptus Astartes wrote:If your Chapter does not have an associated Chapter Tactic, use the Chapter Tactic of its founding Chapter.

Raptors, RaW, MUST use Raven Guard tactics and Stratagems, and MUST use a Generic Warlord Trait since the Traits do not have this exception, only the legitimate Chapters can use the special Traits.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

highwind01 wrote:

Uhm, no you dont?! (And there is not a single rule telling you that you have to...)

People should actually just read the rules in the SM codex!
The rules clearly say that you replace <chapter> with whatever chapter you choose and not to replace it with one of the first founding chapters!
The rules also clearly say that later founding (or made up) chapters use the chapter tactics / stratagems of the first founding chapters and that you treat affected units as if they were from the according first founding chapter!
"as if they were" does not mean "they are!" and certainly not "change every units keyword to the according first founding chapter!"

I don't have the codex handy at the moment but my recollection is that you're only told to use the stratagems as if they were one of the founding chapters. You're not told to do something like this for the tactics. So the RAW problem I was pointing to is that your RAPTORS guys get the Raven Guard Tactic, but this only does anything for RAVEN GUARD units.

Page 195 Codex: Adeptus Astartes wrote:If your Chapter does not have an associated Chapter Tactic, use the Chapter Tactic of its founding Chapter.

Raptors, RaW, MUST use Raven Guard tactics and Stratagems, and MUST use a Generic Warlord Trait since the Traits do not have this exception, only the legitimate Chapters can use the special Traits.

Now quote the whole paragraph, there's wriggle room in the last lines.

You do realize page 8 of Codex Space Marines list the Raptors as a known Second Founding Chapter of the Raven Guard...

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

highwind01 wrote:

Uhm, no you dont?! (And there is not a single rule telling you that you have to...)

People should actually just read the rules in the SM codex!
The rules clearly say that you replace <chapter> with whatever chapter you choose and not to replace it with one of the first founding chapters!
The rules also clearly say that later founding (or made up) chapters use the chapter tactics / stratagems of the first founding chapters and that you treat affected units as if they were from the according first founding chapter!
"as if they were" does not mean "they are!" and certainly not "change every units keyword to the according first founding chapter!"

I don't have the codex handy at the moment but my recollection is that you're only told to use the stratagems as if they were one of the founding chapters. You're not told to do something like this for the tactics. So the RAW problem I was pointing to is that your RAPTORS guys get the Raven Guard Tactic, but this only does anything for RAVEN GUARD units.

Page 195 Codex: Adeptus Astartes wrote:If your Chapter does not have an associated Chapter Tactic, use the Chapter Tactic of its founding Chapter.

Raptors, RaW, MUST use Raven Guard tactics and Stratagems, and MUST use a Generic Warlord Trait since the Traits do not have this exception, only the legitimate Chapters can use the special Traits.

I'm not sure why you're bringing this up, though note that actually the rules give you somewhat different methods for picking a tactic and a unique stratagem (at least if you don't know the founding chapter). My point here, however, was that while the RAPTORS get the Raven Guard tactic, this tactic doesn't do anything for them RAW since it affects RAVEN GUARD units. This is contrasted with how they get the Raven Guard stratagem, and can use it because the stratagem rules say that successors can use the unique stratagems as if they were the founding chapter.

Hey, I'm just going RAW... it literally says if you're unsure look it up or pick one that suits. Surprised the chap who normally strictly adheres to RAW is running fluff-first on this one, is all. Not saying I'd be that obtuse, but someone could and wouldn't necessarily be wrong!

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Hey, I'm just going RAW... it literally says if you're unsure look it up or pick one that suits. Surprised the chap who normally strictly adheres to RAW is running fluff-first on this one, is all. Not saying I'd be that obtuse, but someone could and wouldn't necessarily be wrong!

The codex literally states the Raptors are a 2nd Founding Successor of the Raven Guard. The rule literally tells you to look at the background. There is nothing "unsure" about it.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Hey, I'm just going RAW... it literally says if you're unsure look it up or pick one that suits. Surprised the chap who normally strictly adheres to RAW is running fluff-first on this one, is all. Not saying I'd be that obtuse, but someone could and wouldn't necessarily be wrong!

The codex literally states the Raptors are a 2nd Founding Successor of the Raven Guard. The rule literally tells you to look at the background. There is nothing "unsure" about it.

No, they say either consult the fluff or pick one. No condition in the sentence to do the first even if known. Either/or. You were telling people about logic gates just the other day. RAW you can pick what you like.

(Again, not HIPWI but someone could pull this move)

 Lance845 wrote:

highwind01 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Basically you have to use any FW forces as a index army until FW tells you otherwise. Your other option is to use them as proxies for a Codex army which means you have to use the codex armies unique characters instead of the FW ones.

Made up ruling again?
Example: I want to add Lias Issodon from FW "Imperial Armour Adeptus Astrates" to my Space Marine detachment from "Codex Space Marine"... please quote me (with page)the according rule from either book where it says I cannot do so! Alternativly show me an official FAQ where it says I cannot do so.

There is no rule that says you cannot do something.

Technically there are in fact rules that say you cannot do something, for example, when choosing a unit to charge with, "you may not choose a unit that Advanced or Fell Back this turn, nor one that started the Charge phase within 1" of an enemy." These rules, however, are putting limitations on things that you have already been given permission to do. So, your main point about needing permission is still valid even though this sentence of yours isn't.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Hey, I'm just going RAW... it literally says if you're unsure look it up or pick one that suits. Surprised the chap who normally strictly adheres to RAW is running fluff-first on this one, is all. Not saying I'd be that obtuse, but someone could and wouldn't necessarily be wrong!

The codex literally states the Raptors are a 2nd Founding Successor of the Raven Guard. The rule literally tells you to look at the background. There is nothing "unsure" about it.

No, they say either consult the fluff or pick one. No condition in the sentence to do the first even if known. Either/or. You were telling people about logic gates just the other day. RAW you can pick what you like.

(Again, not HIPWI but someone could pull this move)

No. From page 195 of Codex Space Marines:

If you are unsure of a Chapter’s founding Chapter, either consult the background sections of our books or choose a Tactic from the table that best describes its character and fighting style.

We are sure of the Raptors founding Chapter. Its the Raven Guard. Hence this does not apply to the Raptors.

 Ghaz wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Hey, I'm just going RAW... it literally says if you're unsure look it up or pick one that suits. Surprised the chap who normally strictly adheres to RAW is running fluff-first on this one, is all. Not saying I'd be that obtuse, but someone could and wouldn't necessarily be wrong!

The codex literally states the Raptors are a 2nd Founding Successor of the Raven Guard. The rule literally tells you to look at the background. There is nothing "unsure" about it.

No, they say either consult the fluff or pick one. No condition in the sentence to do the first even if known. Either/or. You were telling people about logic gates just the other day. RAW you can pick what you like.

(Again, not HIPWI but someone could pull this move)

No. From page 195 of Codex Space Marines:

If you are unsure of a Chapter’s founding Chapter, either consult the background sections of our books or choose a Tactic from the table that best describes its character and fighting style.

We are sure of the Raptors founding Chapter. Its the Raven Guard. Hence this does not apply to the Raptors.

"You're sure, I'm not, so I picked one."

Agaaaain, not HIWPI but someone, somewhere is gonna try...

 JohnnyHell wrote:
"You're sure, I'm not, so I picked one."

Agaaaain, not HIWPI but someone, somewhere is gonna try...

I know you hate it, but you can just as easily say "I am not sure how many wounds my conscripts have..."

It's not logical and totally ignoring the rules.

The rules don't cover dishonesty and lying. We know what the Raptors founding Chapter is, period.

 Lance845 wrote:

There is no rule that says you cannot do something. 40k is a permission based rule set. You would need a rule that directly tells you you CAN do something. Which you don't have. FW forces have never been a part of Codex: Space Marine. They have always been their own armies in the same way that Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves are. We have no permission to treat Red Scorpions as part of the SM codex so we have no permission to treat them as a successor or home brew and use the Chapter Tactics, relics, and strategems from those chapters. Until FW says otherwise you cannot use SM codex rules with FW armies.

OMG... just read the rules!

It is page 130 in the Space Marine Codex:
All Space Marine units are drawn from a Chapter. Some datasheets specify what Chapter the unit is drawn from (e.g. Marneus Calgar has the ULTRAMARINES keyword, so is drawn from the Ultramarines Chapter). If an ADEPTUS ASTARTES datasheet does not specify which Chapter it is drawn from, it will have the <CHAPTER> keyword. When you include such a unit in your army, you must nominate which Chapter that unit is from. You then simply replace the <CHAPTER> keyword in every instance on that unit’s datasheet with the name of your chosen Chapter.
For example, if you were to include a Captain in your army, and you decided he was from the Blood Ravens Chapter, his <CHAPTER> Faction keyword is changed to BLOOD RAVENS and his Rites of Battle ability would then say ‘You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 made for friendly BLOOD RAVENS units within 6" of this model.’

=> This rules definitely allows me to use RAPTORS as my chapter keyword!
Hell, they even used a chapter (BLOOD RAVENS)as an example, which is not represented in the GW Codex but instead has a FW character! Could it be any clearer?!

Dionysodorus wrote:

I don't have the codex handy at the moment but my recollection is that you're only told to use the stratagems as if they were one of the founding chapters. You're not told to do something like this for the tactics. So the RAW problem I was pointing to is that your RAPTORS guys get the Raven Guard Tactic, but this only does anything for RAVEN GUARD units.

Well, you are...

Page 195 "Chapter Tactics"
If your Chapter does not have an associated Chapter Tactic, use the Chapter Tactic of its founding Chapter. For example, CRIMSON FISTS are a successor Chapter of the IMPERIAL FISTS, so should use the Chapter Tactic of the IMPERIAL FISTS.

Page 196 "Stratagems"
If your Chapter does not have any associated Stratagems, you can use the Stratagems of its founding Chapter. For example, CRIMSON FISTS are a successor Chapter of the IMPERIAL FISTS, so you can use the Bolter Drill Stratagem to affect a CRIMSON FISTS INFANTRY unit just as if were an IMPERIAL FISTS unit

The wording of the actual rules (first sentences) are completely identical for both - and thats the important part
Granted, the wording of the examples do differ: the Stratagem example clearly tells you to treat the CRIMSON FISTS as IMPERIAL FISTS while the Chapter Tactics example just tells you to use IMPERIAL FISTS tactics for the CRIMSON FISTS - but I think this is of minior relevance... one could argue that for being able to actually use the chapter tactics of the founding chapter you have to treat the successor chapter as founding chapter in first place, because otherwise you arent able to use it.

I can see your point but I also think it is quite obvious just sloppy wording with a very clear intention from GWs side how to handle it.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
"You're sure, I'm not, so I picked one."

Agaaaain, not HIWPI but someone, somewhere is gonna try...

I know you hate it, but you can just as easily say "I am not sure how many wounds my conscripts have..."

It's not logical and totally ignoring the rules.

Fair shout! Your favourite example is legitimately applicable this time!

highwind01 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

There is no rule that says you cannot do something. 40k is a permission based rule set. You would need a rule that directly tells you you CAN do something. Which you don't have. FW forces have never been a part of Codex: Space Marine. They have always been their own armies in the same way that Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves are. We have no permission to treat Red Scorpions as part of the SM codex so we have no permission to treat them as a successor or home brew and use the Chapter Tactics, relics, and strategems from those chapters. Until FW says otherwise you cannot use SM codex rules with FW armies.

OMG... just read the rules!

It is page 130 in the Space Marine Codex:
All Space Marine units are drawn from a Chapter. Some datasheets specify what Chapter the unit is drawn from (e.g. Marneus Calgar has the ULTRAMARINES keyword, so is drawn from the Ultramarines Chapter). If an ADEPTUS ASTARTES datasheet does not specify which Chapter it is drawn from, it will have the <CHAPTER> keyword. When you include such a unit in your army, you must nominate which Chapter that unit is from. You then simply replace the <CHAPTER> keyword in every instance on that unit’s datasheet with the name of your chosen Chapter.
For example, if you were to include a Captain in your army, and you decided he was from the Blood Ravens Chapter, his <CHAPTER> Faction keyword is changed to BLOOD RAVENS and his Rites of Battle ability would then say ‘You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 made for friendly BLOOD RAVENS units within 6" of this model.’

=> This rules definitely allows me to use RAPTORS as my chapter keyword!
Hell, they even used a chapter (BLOOD RAVENS)as an example, which is not represented in the GW Codex but instead has a FW character! Could it be any clearer?!

Good job! You quoted the rule for how the <chapter> keyword is generic and meant to be changed for the model. At no point does that rule allow you to use non codex sm chapters with codex sm rules.

Fw is going to be the likely source for an answer and they have committed to not giving them until they publish a book.

Which means the only valid raw answer is the one i said. Your an index army or a proxy for one of the codex armies.

Red scorpions don't get to pick a chapter tactic. Not till fw tells us they do.

Okay, here is an easy way to play your Falcon Guardians:

In a FRIENDLY game, tell your opponent that your Space Marine chapter is called the Falcon Guardians, but in game they play exactly like Raven Guard with ALL of the ups and downs that Raven Guard space marines have. For all intents and purposes they ARE Raven Guard. They even have Raven Guard named characters. If your oponnent says no, he is not friendly, so don’t play him.

In a Tournament, tell the organizers that you have a Raven Guard space marine army. Before they deployed from their fortress monastery, they sent their armour down to maintainence, to have them painted up fresh. However, the job was handed over to a none-too-promising recruit, whose bright spot on his resume is that he got fired from Maaco. He fat fingerd the controls on the Paint-em-up 41,000, and the armour came out looking like a bunch of Ultramarines splashed with Pepto Bismo.

The point is, just play them with a complete set of known rules. The Fluff is there to make you happy. This is just a game, after all.

duWhee wrote:
Okay, here is an easy way to play your Falcon Guardians:

In a FRIENDLY game, tell your opponent that your Space Marine chapter is called the Falcon Guardians, but in game they play exactly like Raven Guard with ALL of the ups and downs that Raven Guard space marines have. For all intents and purposes they ARE Raven Guard. They even have Raven Guard named characters. If your oponnent says no, he is not friendly, so don’t play him.

In a Tournament, tell the organizers that you have a Raven Guard space marine army. Before they deployed from their fortress monastery, they sent their armour down to maintainence, to have them painted up fresh. However, the job was handed over to a none-too-promising recruit, whose bright spot on his resume is that he got fired from Maaco. He fat fingerd the controls on the Paint-em-up 41,000, and the armour came out looking like a bunch of Ultramarines splashed with Pepto Bismo.

The point is, just play them with a complete set of known rules. The Fluff is there to make you happy. This is just a game, after all.

Exactly. I started to convert/paint up some Storm Wardens. Rules wise they are Black Templars. Named characters are black templar named characters. Chapter tactics, stratgems, traits... all black templar. The Emperors Champion? He's my top Tempest Blade. But thats all fluff for me and my opponent and anyone else to look at and enjoy. As far as the game goes it's black templars top to bottom.

Yeah, there's really no reason to actually put <Sneaky Pete's> in place of <Chapter> for me if I'm playing <Raven Guard> rules. Your narrative can be whatever you want and you can call them verbally whatever you want and write your fan-fiction however you want, but me calling them Sneaky Beakies doesn't change the fact that my army list says <Raven Guard> for ease of understanding the rules for my opponent.