Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

My understanding is Renegades and Heretics do not get the updated unit values from the codexes - they must use the version from the index etc. that is referenced. For example whereas baneblade had reduced point values and improved weapon metrics, the renegades and heretics version would only get the old/prior point values that are referenced for each unit?

The FW index provides you with the location of the datasheet at time of printing. But as a rule you must always use the most recent publicised version of any datasheer.
Therefore you must use the datasheets published in the codex when it is issued.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
The FW index provides you with the location of the datasheet at time of printing. But as a rule you must always use the most recent publicised version of any datasheer.
Therefore you must use the datasheets published in the codex when it is issued.

Agreed. You use the most recent datasheet.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
The FW index provides you with the location of the datasheet at time of printing. But as a rule you must always use the most recent publicised version of any datasheer.
Therefore you must use the datasheets published in the codex when it is issued.

Incorrect. By that logic Space Wolves would use the SM codex.

You use the Index until Forge World decide to update their books, either by reprinting or by errata.

You're free to ignore the rules and house rule it, of course.

Why would space wolves not use the space Marine codex for same name units?

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Why would space wolves not use the space Marine codex for same name units?

Because the Index says to use the Index units for Space Wolves and nothing to the contrary has been released.

BCB has argued this path in another threads too. I wouldn't pay it any heed, he's quoted this text enough times to know it exists:

Can I combine units from the index and a codex into one army?
The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books. You can certainly use units with updated datasheets alongside units from the index that have yet to be updated. Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version.

Source: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

Note it references 'Datasheet' and does not say 'your entire FW army list must have been updated'.

There's no reason why an Index entry that has been updated shouldn't use the Codex version, as GW's own instructions have said you should use it.

HIWPI and what is believe is intended is that you may (and should) use the latest versions from the Codex if there is a newer Datasheet there. This means there are some odd mismatches in the DKoK list and maybe the R&H, where their special Russes don't have the upgraded rules. But otherwise units picked from the AM Index previously can now use the AM Codex versions, as GW want you to.

From the same source:

If I have a Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Space Wolves army, will I need to buy Codex: Space Marines to use my army?
You don’t have to. Other Space Marines factions not covered in the new codex will continue to use all the datasheets, rules and points values in the index until their own codex is released.

This could be extrapolated to apply to other situations as well.

 Ghaz wrote:
From the same source:

If I have a Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Space Wolves army, will I need to buy Codex: Space Marines to use my army?
You don’t have to. Other Space Marines factions not covered in the new codex will continue to use all the datasheets, rules and points values in the index until their own codex is released.

This could be extrapolated to apply to other situations as well.

It could, for other Space Marines. Anything else is a leap of logic with no basis. It's pretty specifically about Space Marine factions. For other instances, what I quoted applies.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
From the same source:

If I have a Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Space Wolves army, will I need to buy Codex: Space Marines to use my army?
You don’t have to. Other Space Marines factions not covered in the new codex will continue to use all the datasheets, rules and points values in the index until their own codex is released.

This could be extrapolated to apply to other situations as well.

It could, for other Space Marines. Anything else is a leap of logic with no basis. It's pretty specifically about Space Marine factions. For other instances, what I quoted applies.

Because Space Marines are special snowflakes? Sorry, but that argument doesn't hold water. The fact is we have contradictory information and at this point in time there is no clear answer.

 Ghaz wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
From the same source:

If I have a Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Space Wolves army, will I need to buy Codex: Space Marines to use my army?
You don’t have to. Other Space Marines factions not covered in the new codex will continue to use all the datasheets, rules and points values in the index until their own codex is released.

This could be extrapolated to apply to other situations as well.

It could, for other Space Marines. Anything else is a leap of logic with no basis. It's pretty specifically about Space Marine factions. For other instances, what I quoted applies.

Because Space Marines are special snowflakes? Sorry, but that argument doesn't hold water. The fact is we have contradictory information and at this point in time there is no clear answer.

It's not contradictory. The 'argument' is because that paragraph specifically names Space Marine chapters getting their own Codex. GW wrote that exception, not me. They wrote it because that Codex was first out of the gate. No further, similar passages have been published by GW to the tune of "R&H armies must have worse vehicles at higher points because reasons", have they? No. So we follow the "latest Datasheet" requirement.

I honestly don't get people's issue here. If the AM get updated stuff in the Codex, and a FW list chooses standard units from the AM, you're told to use the latest datasheets... which will be the ones in the Codex.

If you've any argument to the contrary with any basis please post it, but not 'extrapolating' stuff, which in this case means "adding words that aren't there to make a specific case into a general one".

Again, you're basing your entire argument on 'because it says Space Marines' and can't provide any logical reason why it could not possibly apply to other similar situations.

 Ghaz wrote:
Again, you're basing your entire argument on 'because it says Space Marines' and can't provide any logical reason why it could not possibly apply to other similar situations.

Because I don't have to if it's specific. Which it is, because the article was written in the lead up to SM Codex launch.

The article gives two things: General - update Datasheets from Index > Codex, and Specific - Space Marine Chapters who've traditionally had their own Codexes can carry on using the Index. We're all used to specific trumps general, right?

It's as much to save customer ill will than anything, to avoid SW and DA players buying a book that's barely relevant and feeling duped two months down the line. Any reasonable reading can see that. I feel you're somewhat clutching here trying to make a specific non-Codex-compliant Space Marine thing fit generally.

Sounds more to me you're clutching at straws in trying to get Forge World rules with Codex rules despite them being written for and explicitly telling you to use Index rules.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Sounds more to me you're clutching at straws in trying to get Forge World rules with Codex rules despite them being written for and explicitly telling you to use Index rules.

Let's make it super simple:

- Indexes were always a stopgap, with Codexes due to roll out quickly, GW told us that. So any link to an Index Datasheet is necessarily a mutable link. They could hardly write "use AM Codex" in a book that came out months before it. They listed where to find the e.g. Baneblade Datasheet *at that time*.

Following the article I linked, you can split R&H units into two types:
- FW-specific units that keep their Index rules as there are no updated versions, e.g. Malefic Lord, Renegade Mutant Rabble
- Units chosen from Index Imperium 2 that get updated to AM Codex Datasheets, as GW has told us to do, e.g. Baneblade, Wyvern

What is hard to grasp about that? What is reaching when its following what we're told to do? Precisely zero straws have been clutched.


Edit: you want a final clincher?

Top of page 81, start of R&H army list:

There are a number of Astra Militarum datasheets that can also be used by Renegades and Heretics models – presented in the box on the left.

Note: Astra Militarum Datasheets.. .now where would we find the latest Astra Militarum Datasheets after the Codex has been released? Hmmmm, I wonder...

The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books.

Thanks GW!

Again, that logic means Space Wolves get to use Codex SM units which is not the case either RaW or RaI.

You're simply wrong on this point but it seems it's fruitless to go on further.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Again, that logic means Space Wolves get to use Codex SM units which is not the case either RaW or RaI.

You're simply wrong on this point but it seems it's fruitless to go on further.

Except the Space Wolves have a caveat paragraph saying to keep using the Index (it's even quoted upthread) so that doesn't follow. They have a specific exemption so players don't have to buy the Space Marine Codex needlessly (discussed above).

*You're* simply wrong on this point, my good man. It doesn't matter that these units are being used by a variant army list. They are AM Datasheets and as such the latest versions are in the Codex, once released. I've laid out all my logic and it's sound, and disproved your counters.