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What do people think of playing a 100% tank guard army. The urge to field nothing but russes sounds very fun.

I saw one fielded. 2k pt with a baneblade like 5 russes and 3 hellhounds or something. It looked good until a few charges got off. No screening units to prevent models from charging. Sure the tanks could back up and the rest could shoot, but 1 heldrake locked 3 tanks in, and the AM player wasn't able to get to any objectives. They just bet it all on tabling the opponent.

It could be fun, but it's an all or nothing list I think.

I wouldn't like it personally; I find it dull.

It's a completely subjective matter, though.

I posted about this in the AM tactics chat. My buddy who played pretty much straight tank guard ran in to that problem...he either tabled his opponent or was tabled or at least lost badly. I remember he played against a space wolf list that got a turn one assault off with thunder hammers and just wrecked him. But then he played my guard list and blew away both of my IK knights and then tabled me. But yeah as mentioned - no screening units can be an issue. That was the primary function of my conscripts. Take up my back field so no one could deep strike or land a storm raven with dudes to mess with my bassies and manticore.

Go Loud or Go Home it is.

I've been mono tanking more than once, the artillery and the ability to screen with bastions is not a viable price to pay for the loudness of guns

With Supreme Command tooled StormSwords it's possible viable if the command tanks are cheap enough given the damage output upgrade

I've done full tank lists many time, over a few different editions. The thing is, you get so much extra utility from a few infantry that you are really hamstringing yourself if you don't take them. A couple of squads of conscripts can really save you a lot of pain by locking down a squad of assault troops. Because of this, my old ABG list slowly turned into what I called a blobtank list, where advancing infantry let my demolishers get close enough to deal good damage. I'm really looking forward to trying a Tallarn force with this style of play, as the infantry are faster now and the tanks can shoot at full bs. Add to that some outflanking devildogs, buffed armoured sentinels, mobile manticores and "crush them", Things are looking fun.

Of course, you could always take a flamer hellhammer and just "crush them" into the enemy's strongest assault unit. That would probably do some damage. You don't need to bubble wrap if you just horribly murder everything. Maybe take some scout sentinels to defend against those 1st turn deepstrikes.

Playing against it sounds like it would get dull quick.

parking lot and any anti infantry weapon you bring becomes fairly moot.

not that its not fluffy.

I'm not sure if an all Leman Russ list could work, however I think if you had some lighter vehicles like Hellhounds or even Wyverns to absorb some charges first and maybe tie down some CC units, you might be able to get your heavy hitters to last long enough to do some damage.

If you really wanted to stretch it, Scout Sentinels would be a great help also.

I dislike playing binary games. Either your opponent brings enough AT, and you lose. Or they don't, and you win.

It's not QUITE that binary, but choose units that your opponent can shoot is kind of in the spirit of a casual game.

I'd love to make a Tallarn Leman Russ company work.

The trick would be not deploying the russes. Don't be a gunline, be mobile.

So for example:

Spearhead

Tank commander with battlecannon, las, heavy bolters

2x3 russes with battlecannon, las, heavy bolters

1x3 russes with punisher, 3 heavy bolters

Taurox

Vanguard

Primaris Psyker

Astropath

Tech Priest

Master of Ordnance.

This comes to 2k I think. You give the commander the dagger relic that lets him outflank, then you pop the tallarn stratagem in deployment, to put the 3 russ squadrons off the board as well.

I'm not sure whether the taurox full of characters counts as 5 units for the purposes of how many units you are allowed in reserves, or only one. I also don't know if you need to have an infantry unit to send with your dagger-wielding tank commander* for it to work. But if you have to deploy outside the taurox then you could instead have something like an outrider detachment with the primaris and 3 scout sentinels, or a patrol with a couple of conscript mobs.

There are all kinds of options. I like the idea of the primaris psyker and the astropath, because between them they can make my command tank pretty hard to kill (-1 to hit and +1 to its saves). The tech priest can help rebuild it or other tanks.

Cadian tanks clearly have the greatest raw firepower, but they get worse fast against rushing enemies. Tallarns have the mobile regimental trait, tank order and stratagem.

*I find this amusing. Would definitely have to be modelled.

That is the style of list that I am trying to write, although I am of the opinion that you shouldn't invest too heavily into the outflanking force. It needs to be a destabilising side swipe, enough to put the opponent off balance and force them to deal with it. You go too heavy with it and the enemy can just steamroll your main force whilst deploying in such a way to deny you good outflanking spots. Also, it needs to be small enough that you have the option of not bringing it on turn 1, so that you can wait for the right time in case that would help.

Personally, I am thinking of a few different options for outflankers:

- A las/MM/punisher tank commander joined by a flamer punisher. The tank commander can order the flamer version to move into flamer range, something that they can't normally do with a 9" distance.
- Devildogs. This gets them inside the 12" melta range and can really mess stuff up if it isn't bubble wrapped. Maybe wait until turn 2 so you can strip the wrapping from a good target.
- Shotgun melta veterans. A good infantry unit to use, although you can't get within 6" when you bring them in, which sucks. Probably 2 of them with an officer to issue take aim.

Basically, I see the ambush as a way to get a unit with close range weapons into a shooting position in the enemies backfield, causing a diversion for the main force. Using things like battlecannons seems sort of pointless to me, as they can fire anyway and don't need that position to be effective.

I'm pretty sure all 10 of those russes can outflank. 3 of them with the stratagem and the commander with his dagger. Each squadron of russes only counts as 1 unit - I think.

And you don't necessarily outflank as such. I'd be using the stratagem to deploy where the enemy was not - not where they were. I think that being nowhere near the enemy is the central plank of a tank-based strategy.

I started out thinking about how I could use the stratagem and the tank order to get heavy flamers close to stuff on turn one, but actually why bother? Much better to use mobility to keep moving and firing from far, far away from the baddies.

That said, if I can have a squadron of obsec LR punishers appear in my opponent's back field from time to time after their scary cc fighters have left, that might be no bad thing. There'd arguably be a case for sticking demolishers or multi-meltas on some of these tanks, if those options were less ridiculously over-priced. I guess it could be an option for the commander.

I think if you're going to do this then just go full LR chassis, you're not going to win every game but you've got a shot with them having Obsec.

2x Spearheads with all stock LRBTs is just shy of 1900 points. Bit of points to throw into upgrading the odd turret (Punisher on 1 cmdr for chaff maybe?)

You're rocking 12 LR chasis that way.

I guess what I would do is ambush with a few tanks and bubble wrap. I was thinking of conscripts but you can't outflank commissars. Maybe use the Commissar tank stratagem? Eh, there is definitely a balancing act to do. I really am tending towards close range units though. The ability to get close range guns really far up the board is far more valuable, in my eyes, than simply using Ambush to keep your stuff safe on turn 1 and move it onto your board half.

I probably wouldn't bother using both the dagger and Ambush. With squadrons you should be able to get plenty of units outflanking and use the relic slot for something else, such as Kurov's Aquilla or the Laurels of Command. I know you could take more than one but you are already spending 3 cp on ambush, so extra cp use is limited.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 More Dakka wrote:
I think if you're going to do this then just go full LR chassis, you're not going to win every game but you've got a shot with them having Obsec.

2x Spearheads with all stock LRBTs is just shy of 1900 points. Bit of points to throw into upgrading the odd turret (Punisher on 1 cmdr for chaff maybe?)

You're rocking 12 LR chasis that way.

2 spearheads means you have 5cp, of which you spend 3 on amush. That sounds like way to few to me, although I am writing lists with 12+ and still think it is too low. IG have so many ways to spend CP it is insane.

True but most are for infantry, there's good Tank ones, but pushing out 24 D6 S8 Ap-2 D3 across the whole table has its merit.

I'd just not ambush and go Catachan, overwhelming firepower.

Sure, a lot of them only apply to infantry but there are still plenty that are really good for a tank force. You could do nothing but use the +1 save every turn and it would still be worth it. Actually, I am now interested in which ones an ABG would use so I think I will list them:

- Jury rigging: Probably invaluable in a tank army. Best used to restore a tank above a wound threshold to give better BS.
- Crush them: Not great on russes to be honest, although if you happen to have brought a super heavy can be awesome.
- Take cover: Just great, I can see myself using this every turn.
- Inspired tactics: Sometimes you just need that order, especially with a Tallarn force. Not one I would rely on but if your command tank dies and another needs to pick up the slack then it is useful
- Defensive gunners: An all tank army will forgo bubble wrap and so will get charged. This can help foil a charge, or at least lessen its effect.
- Vengeance for Cadia: This really puts the hurt on chaos. Just noticed it works on overwatch too, so you could combine it with defensive gunners to really stop a charge.

Not a comprehensive list as some just seem bad but use of these ones could help swing a game for you. Honestly, I think proper stratagem usage is almost as important as proper order usage in the new codex, which is why I'm building brigades for my lists. Getting 12+ CP is going to be such an advantage, as well as being able to claw back CP through Kurov's Aquilla and Grand Strategist.

Yeah I'm not sold on the dagger either but I do think it might be a good option. I think there's a great deal to be said fir keeping all your valuable units off the board during deployment, and being really scattered thereafter.

I think there are probably two main ways to play loads of tanks. You can be tallarn and use positioning as your defence, or be Cadian and use bodies instead. But if you're cadian I think it makes more sense to have a combined-arms army using artillery(happy to be static) and super-heavies (likewise, and not penalised for moving) rather than all russes. You do get to take Pask, and plasma sponsons become a really good option.

I think heavy flamers are overpriced. They produce the same quality of hits as heavy bolters. The far shorter range is somewhat made up for by hitting automatically, so when in range a heavy flamer is far better. But people should struggle to charge my guys except by deep striking, and flamers are no defence against that.

Bit of a moan here. The prices for the various LR guns are all over the place, relative to their power. The battlecannon is best in almost all situations, and is nearly the cheapest. Demolishers probably are worth their extra price but vanquishers, exterminators and eradicators all pay more for a worse gun. Publishers and executioners seem about right.

Yeah but by taking 6 troops and 3 elites you're already well outside of the theme of a full tank army.

I'm going to go through the orders more in detail, I'm just working off the confirmed rumors right now lol.

 More Dakka wrote:
Yeah but by taking 6 troops and 3 elites you're already well outside of the theme of a full tank army.

I'm going to go through the orders more in detail, I'm just working off the confirmed rumors right now lol.

I mean, you could take a fluffy ABG by making your troops into mechanised infantry but that is really cutting into the points and is definitely not a heavy Russ list. Maybe a single Battalion detachment with 3 scion squads for troops. It's fluffy enough as I can see Scion drops being timed to coincide with a large Tank push for maximum effect. You could even make it a Tempestus detachment so you get that doctrine. 2 tempestors and 3-4 scion squads are pretty cheap and would give some extra options for you to play with. An outrider datachment with 3x scout sentinels is very cheap and definitely fluffy, as a Tank group needs scouts. A supreme command detachment would allow you to bring a super heavy, if that is what you wanted.

Now that I think about it, I had been forgetting the FW units you can bring. FW has for a long time been the true home of the Armoured Battle Group, so it was silly for me to forget it. Now, until it is updated I would avoid all of the russes as they are expensive and don't get the double shot. However, you can use some of the units to fill up slots that the codex doesn't have good units for. Whilst a lot of the options are heavy support or super heavies, there are some choices that can fill troops and elites. Atlas recovery tanks and salamander command vehicles are both elites that can give you buffs. Trojans are a troop choice that can buff units and also carry infantry, possibly some techpriests for a fluffy support unit.

 Trickstick wrote:

Now that I think about it, I had been forgetting the FW units you can bring. FW has for a long time been the true home of the Armoured Battle Group, so it was silly for me to forget it. Now, until it is updated I would avoid all of the russes as they are expensive and don't get the double shot. However, you can use some of the units to fill up slots that the codex doesn't have good units for. Whilst a lot of the options are heavy support or super heavies, there are some choices that can fill troops and elites. Atlas recovery tanks and salamander command vehicles are both elites that can give you buffs. Trojans are a troop choice that can buff units and also carry infantry, possibly some techpriests for a fluffy support unit.

Actually, Trojans are dedicated transports.

 Tyr13 wrote:
Actually, Trojans are dedicated transports.

Whoops, got my symbols mixed up.

If I was going full tanks I would definitely go Tallarn, gives you way more flexibility and mobility is about the only defense you'll have anyways. It'll also allow you to "Jump Shoot Jump" like Tau if you've got good terrain for it, which is huge, or push an attack while still getting to use Grinding Advance. Plus you could use things like Hellhounds and Sentinels as well and not be penalized with it, whereas other armies like Cadians tend to really just focus on static Leman Russ lines.

That said, I could see merits to Cadian, Catachan, Vostroyan, and even Valhallan companies, all for wildly different reasons, it really just comes down to what you need your tanks to do and how you want to go about doing it. Each one benefits different variants and I really don't see a "perfect Leman Russ" for all the given tank regiments combined. Each one will have a place it performs best at and others where it's a bit meh. Exterminators, Vanquishers, and Eradicators seem a bit meh but they're not unusable, just clearly inferior to the basic Russ and the various Demolisher variants. If I had to pick a favorite it'd be a close contest between the basic russ and the Executioner, but they do fill different roles and I feel like I'll do best with a mix of the two. A basic russ with a heavy bolter comes in at only 152pts too which is a very nice price for a pretty all around useful platform, and a couple of heavy bolter sponsons does a lot for only 16pts more. Not so sure if I want to throw lascannons on them for the classic Russ loadout but I'm going to try it for a while and see how it does, my tanks are all magnetized anyways so I'm going to experiment and see what I like best.

I'm going Valhallan as is because I run mostly infantry and my tanks tend to be few enough that enemies can put quite a bit of hurt on them. Giving them another 3-4 wounds of full firepower really helps them stick around and with basic Leman russes having such terrible accuracy past 7 wounds, I feel like it keeps them in the fight much longer. Yes, rerolling 1's and the amount of shots you have is nice, but I don't see a huge point in it if I'm hitting on 5's and 6's, especially after receiving a 1st turn alpha strike. No you're not getting such a crazy alpha strike but it also means your tanks aren't completely useless going past 7 wounds. I don't know how they would do in a full tank company given they lack the ability to buff their firepower like other Regiments, but they'd be tough to shut down at the very least.

Also I'd take a look at tech priests if you're committing to a lot of armor. Yes they only repair a hitpoint a turn but that can be the difference on damage thresholds with tanks and with the Jury Rig strategem it means your average tank can get back up to full firepower from 5hp, or in Valhallan's case full fire power from only 2HP! It forces opponents to focus fire and absolutely positively kill a unit. While yes, focusing fire is important and most people try for it, with proper terrain placement an opponent will rarely have his whole army available to hit any particular tank, I think you'll see it come up more than you would think. I will admit that this helps more in a casual meta where not every army is fielding Guilleman or Mortarion, but I think it still has merit.

I think armored companies have me the most excited out of this whole codex. I always wanted a Leman Russ company and now that I can finally do it without FW (meaning people will actually play against it) I can finally try it out.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I think armored companies have me the most excited out of this whole codex. I always wanted a Leman Russ company and now that I can finally do it without FW (meaning people will actually play against it) I can finally try it out.

Agree with the other stuff you said, but this most of all.

I've been giving a lot of thought to what else to take besides the tanks. It's actually possible to fit in 10 russes with heavy bolters on the front and no sponsons, plus a shadowsword - also sponson-free. That comes to 1969. Not a lot left for upgrades at that point, though you might drop in an astropath or two to buff the shadowsword.

Perhaps surprisingly, I don't think forgeworld has much to offer. I'd like to give my tank commander a conqueror turret - especially since I've actually got one - but I can't and it sucks anyway until they FAQ its grinding advance.

The atlas just seems way worse than a tech priest to me. The Trojan is interesting if you're running a superheavy, and gives you a place to stick a few advisors, but you can't fit it in with a super heavy and the full company. It's arguably good in a less themed list with a superheavy with sponsons as it gives you a place for a nightshroud-casting astropath and maybe a tech priest. Rerolls to hit on a kitted-out superheavy are worth a lot.

Overall I think I still prefer the option of a few characters in a taurox and having lascannons spread around everywhere, rather than the superheavy. You get more flexibility and redundancy - plus you can theoretically win the relic mission if somebody's there to pick the thing up,

Keep in mind an Atlas stacks with a techpriest. So thats potentially 2d3 wounds a turn you can gain back. Could be useful in some lists, but generally, yeah, probably not.

An atlas is quite expensive at 98 point base, although it is much more durable than a techpriest. I guess no one is going to shoot at it either, as there will be better targets. Definitely a fluff choice though, the points would be better spent on another tank.

Superheavy tank companies are better than LRBT companies if you're running pure tank.

I went that way long ago; the russ has been bad on its own since like, 5e.

Sounds fun until your get wrapped up with 200 points worth of termagaunts that have 6 inch pile in, or a few lictors, Then the tyranid play uses rippers to grab objectives and whatever else he wants to bring.