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Made in us
Been Around the Block




Eastern Kingdoms

I saw my local shop has been recently stocking Kings of War stuff, It looks like a cool game models look awesome as well. I was thinking of picking up either goblins or undead to start with as they seem interesting to me. How are they for a new player starting? what is the learning curve for them?
   
Made in us
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot





Never having played Goblins in any game system, I can't advise you on them. Undead, on the other hand ... Learning to use them would not be difficult, learning to use them well is more challenging.

In Kings of War a regular unit can On the Double to move twice its move value straight forward, but unless it has special rules cannot turn. Nearly all the Undead units have the rule "Shambling". While units with Shambling can Charge normally, they may not On the Double. This is both a penalty and an opportunity. Most Undead Characters have a spell called Surge which is used in the Shooting phase. You target a friendly unit with Shambling and roll to hit (4+ on d6) Each hit moves the target unit 1" forward (no turning). If this brings the target unit into contact with the enemy it counts as a Charge. As you are allowed to resolve Shooting in any order, you could ...

1. Shoot an enemy unit, then Surge the same or different unit into them. (A popular trick when using the Diadem of Dragonkind, essentially a flamethrower-type magical item). Note that only 1 Nerve test is taken in this case, not two (Shooting usually has a Nerve test at the end of phase, then if wounds are inflicted in melee, another Nerve test is made.)

2. Move your archers into range. Moving missile units and shooting is (usually) legal, but the unit is now at -1 to hit. As Skeleton Archers are only Ra 6, anyway, you'd still hit on 6s, but you halve the number of dice rolled. As move penalty only applies to units that moved in the Movement Phase, Surging the archers is a work-around. However, the unit must move the full amount Surged so it is possible to Surge too far and be out of arc. (Not usually a problem if you had to Surge to get into range).

3. A better use of Surge is to get a Flank or even Rear attack. For example, Wraiths are flying shamblers. Assume a front line unit has absorbed the initial enemy charge, and the Wraiths are directly behind them. The Wraiths can Fly up to 10" over the enemy unit and land behind them. Being Nimble, the Wraiths can make a 2nd 90 degree turn, so they are now facing the enemy rear. You now cast Surge on the Wraiths for a rear charge. (Flank charges get doubled attacks, rear charges are tripled.) The caster must have LoS to the target, so I mount my Necromancers or Liche Kings on horses they are now Height 2 and can see over basic infantry.

If you don't want to deal with Surge in your first few games, there are Ghouls, Werewolves, and Soul Reavers (vampires). None of these units are Shambling and so move normally. All of them can be Wavered (most Shambling units are Fearless, and cannot be Wavered). The Werewolves are noteworthy as they as are 9" Nimble Large Infantry. They can Charge up to 18" and make a 2nd turn if necessary, so they are manueverable with a large threat radius . A 18" charge is better than most melee cavalry like Knights. Soul Reavers are dangerous due to their high number of attacks, and Soul Reaver cavalry are also De6 (defense) which makes them tough cavalry (De5 is normal for typical heavy cavalry). So with these units you just point them towards the enemy and Charge! (Admittedly, you should still try for flanks and rear, or put two units against 1 ... Solo frontal charges are usually not a great option unless the target is a low Nerve unit and/or is badly damaged and your unit is Soul Reaver Cavalry).

Basic Skeletons and Zombies are fodder. Use them to pin the enemy and limit their movement, but bring other units as hammers. I've taken to using Revenant hordes lately as they are "elite" skeletons: hitting on 4+ and with De5 they can often dish it out and take it. Mummies are great speed bumps with De5 and Regen 5+. They also hit on 4+.

Not a big fan of the Balefire Catapult. Only 1 shot and hits only on 5+. Not reliable. Can hit hard, if it hits.

Characters are important for the Undead. A character with Inspiring is important to any army, and you'll want one with Surge, assuming you use Shambling units. Bane Chant is a useful spell, giving Crushing Strength or Piercing 1 to a target unit. Since many Undead units lack these abilities, they can struggle with high De armies. Heal is also useful, as sometimes the Undead can simply win through attrition. If you do decide to use Wraiths, you'll need a hero to give them Inspiring and Surge them. Consider the Cursed Pharoah with Wings of Honeymaze. He now is a flier, and a tough one with De5 and Regen 5+ and a Ne (Nerve) of 15/17. Very useful.

Best wishes regardless of what army you pick.

Kings of War: Abyssal Dwarves, Dwarves, Elves, Undead
Kings of War Historical: Macedonian
Dropzone Commander: PHR
Blood Angels Necron [WiP]

 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Eastern Kingdoms

 Ancestral Hamster wrote:
Never having played Goblins in any game system, I can't advise you on them. Undead, on the other hand ... Learning to use them would not be difficult, learning to use them well is more challenging.

In Kings of War a regular unit can On the Double to move twice its move value straight forward, but unless it has special rules cannot turn. Nearly all the Undead units have the rule "Shambling". While units with Shambling can Charge normally, they may not On the Double. This is both a penalty and an opportunity. Most Undead Characters have a spell called Surge which is used in the Shooting phase. You target a friendly unit with Shambling and roll to hit (4+ on d6) Each hit moves the target unit 1" forward (no turning). If this brings the target unit into contact with the enemy it counts as a Charge. As you are allowed to resolve Shooting in any order, you could ...

1. Shoot an enemy unit, then Surge the same or different unit into them. (A popular trick when using the Diadem of Dragonkind, essentially a flamethrower-type magical item). Note that only 1 Nerve test is taken in this case, not two (Shooting usually has a Nerve test at the end of phase, then if wounds are inflicted in melee, another Nerve test is made.)

2. Move your archers into range. Moving missile units and shooting is (usually) legal, but the unit is now at -1 to hit. As Skeleton Archers are only Ra 6, anyway, you'd still hit on 6s, but you halve the number of dice rolled. As move penalty only applies to units that moved in the Movement Phase, Surging the archers is a work-around. However, the unit must move the full amount Surged so it is possible to Surge too far and be out of arc. (Not usually a problem if you had to Surge to get into range).

3. A better use of Surge is to get a Flank or even Rear attack. For example, Wraiths are flying shamblers. Assume a front line unit has absorbed the initial enemy charge, and the Wraiths are directly behind them. The Wraiths can Fly up to 10" over the enemy unit and land behind them. Being Nimble, the Wraiths can make a 2nd 90 degree turn, so they are now facing the enemy rear. You now cast Surge on the Wraiths for a rear charge. (Flank charges get doubled attacks, rear charges are tripled.) The caster must have LoS to the target, so I mount my Necromancers or Liche Kings on horses they are now Height 2 and can see over basic infantry.

If you don't want to deal with Surge in your first few games, there are Ghouls, Werewolves, and Soul Reavers (vampires). None of these units are Shambling and so move normally. All of them can be Wavered (most Shambling units are Fearless, and cannot be Wavered). The Werewolves are noteworthy as they as are 9" Nimble Large Infantry. They can Charge up to 18" and make a 2nd turn if necessary, so they are manueverable with a large threat radius . A 18" charge is better than most melee cavalry like Knights. Soul Reavers are dangerous due to their high number of attacks, and Soul Reaver cavalry are also De6 (defense) which makes them tough cavalry (De5 is normal for typical heavy cavalry). So with these units you just point them towards the enemy and Charge! (Admittedly, you should still try for flanks and rear, or put two units against 1 ... Solo frontal charges are usually not a great option unless the target is a low Nerve unit and/or is badly damaged and your unit is Soul Reaver Cavalry).

Basic Skeletons and Zombies are fodder. Use them to pin the enemy and limit their movement, but bring other units as hammers. I've taken to using Revenant hordes lately as they are "elite" skeletons: hitting on 4+ and with De5 they can often dish it out and take it. Mummies are great speed bumps with De5 and Regen 5+. They also hit on 4+.

Not a big fan of the Balefire Catapult. Only 1 shot and hits only on 5+. Not reliable. Can hit hard, if it hits.

Characters are important for the Undead. A character with Inspiring is important to any army, and you'll want one with Surge, assuming you use Shambling units. Bane Chant is a useful spell, giving Crushing Strength or Piercing 1 to a target unit. Since many Undead units lack these abilities, they can struggle with high De armies. Heal is also useful, as sometimes the Undead can simply win through attrition. If you do decide to use Wraiths, you'll need a hero to give them Inspiring and Surge them. Consider the Cursed Pharoah with Wings of Honeymaze. He now is a flier, and a tough one with De5 and Regen 5+ and a Ne (Nerve) of 15/17. Very useful.

Best wishes regardless of what army you pick.


The more you explained it the cooler the undead sound haha. I'm sure ill pick up both armies over time because hey when we are in it we are in we almost always have more then one army . But i think ill start with the undead, so with that in mind where is my money best spent starting out. Should i go for the Non elite undead starter box or buy individually to form a casual starter army to learn.
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




For a more detailled version of the Surge tactics explained above, see http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?419052-How-to-use-Surge

About the army sets, with undead it's usually a good idea to start with a normal army or mega army set to get your core infantry, and then expand with the elite army to add faster units.

However if you already took the mega army, then you have already some werewolves, so unless you want to field more of them part of the elite army might be wasted.

In a similar way, sometimes with werewolves, wraith and soul reaver (vampire knights) you might feel that the revenant cavalry from the elite set is wasted for you, but it depends on your tastes and your style of gameplay.

Myself I would still like to have all of them, if only to have the option to change my list from game to game (the revenant cavalry might not be at the level of the soul reavers, but they are still a solid heavy cavalry unit, and much cheaper in points and often enough to do the job)

But the undead list has many very good fast units, so there is nothing wrong in not using some of them.

Oh before I forgot, don't forget to check the "new" section in mantic store, they have some new monsters that will be released soon, and most armies have new army sets that come with a big monster, the undead have a variant of the normal and mega army set with the new Reveant King on Undead Wyrm (note that there is also a separate upgrade to get wings for the wyrm). The preorder says that they will be released on october 20th
   
Made in us
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot





Should i go for the Non elite undead starter box or buy individually to form a casual starter army to learn.
The basic Undead starter has two Balefire catapults and 20 Ghouls, neither of which I care for. (Ghouls are not Fearless and are only De3). Perhaps a Skeleton Horde and some cavalry to start with, and at least one Necromancer for the Surge. The Undead Elite army is pretty mobile although you'd want some infantry for the anvil to the were & Revenant cav's hammer. Probably the safest route is your second option. Just buy stuff you like and play with it before going all in.

Also, you can experiment with army lists at this site: http://kow2.easyarmy.com/

My first Undead army list for KoW is below. Now I'd replace the Balefire Catapult with a Skeleton Archer Regiment.

Undead (Evil) 1000pts
Skeleton Spearmen Infantry Regiment 115pts
Lifeleech (1), Phalanx, Shambling, - Undead Giant Rats (Lifeleech (2))
Skeleton Spearmen Infantry Horde(40) 175pts
Lifeleech (1), Phalanx, Shambling
Soul Reaver Cavalry Regiment 325pts
Crushing Strength (1), Lifeleech (2), Thunderous Charge (2) - Blessing of the Gods
Balefire Catapult War Engine 100pts
Blast (D6+2), Indirect Fire, Lifeleech (1), Piercing (2), Reload!, Shambling, Vicious

Liche King Hero 185pts
Individual, Inspiring, Lifeleech (1), Regeneration (5+), Surge (12)
- Mount on an undead horse, increasing Speed to 8 and
changing to Hero (Cav), Heal (6)
Necromancer Hero 90pts
Individual, Lifeleech (1), Surge (8), Heal (3)

Kings of War: Abyssal Dwarves, Dwarves, Elves, Undead
Kings of War Historical: Macedonian
Dropzone Commander: PHR
Blood Angels Necron [WiP]

 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Goblins are a fun army to play with IMHO.

I like to hold the enemy up with a wall of cheap infantry units and use trolls and giants to do the real damage.

War trombones and a Wiz or three can help chip away at enemy units whilst hiding behind your lines.

Overall it is a much easier army to play than the undead which rely on a bit of finess and surge tricks to get the most out of them.

The only issue is that you end up with a lot of units to paint.

   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Eastern Kingdoms

 Maccwar wrote:
Goblins are a fun army to play with IMHO.

I like to hold the enemy up with a wall of cheap infantry units and use trolls and giants to do the real damage.

War trombones and a Wiz or three can help chip away at enemy units whilst hiding behind your lines.

Overall it is a much easier army to play than the undead which rely on a bit of finess and surge tricks to get the most out of them.

The only issue is that you end up with a lot of units to paint.


So do they play as just a pure swarm army?
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




Trolls are not irregular in the goblin army, so you can take as many as you want and they will unlock slots for you.

Combined with giants and slashers you can have a nice mix of goblin infantry and fast cavalry with large infantry and monsters for the punch.

Goblins chariots are also decent, they have the speed of light cavalry with the TC(2) of heavy cavalry (but slightly less attacks) plus bows in addition.

So if you can manage their large footprint, they can serve as pseudo heavy cavalry (less defense, but higher speed allowing them to get the first strike), or as archers with melee punch and large melee threath range against chaff hunters.

Back to undead, don't understimate ghouls, the fact that they are not shmabling means that they can move at the double, making them able to suppose some of the more mobile elements of the list that zombies or skeletons couldn't.

You will often see ghouls troops used as mobile screen and harrassers or objective holders, and the occasionnal ghoul horde in some agressive armies that want to advance faster.

But of course if you don't like them, you can also ignore them, there are plenty of viable builds with the undead list and no unit is absolutely required.

Tip : if you don't use ghouls but get some in an army set, the mantic models can be used to bulk zombies units instead, especially if you kitbash them with zombie parts and/or paint them the same as the zombies with decaying colors.

If you later change opinion and finally want to field some ghouls, simply painting them differently should be enough (for exemple the "zombie ghouls" could be painted in tones of green and other rotting colors, while the true ghouls units could be painted in pale flesh color, maybe almost white)
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Enigmatic Exalted Daemon





Albany, NY

 Uldakh wrote:
 Maccwar wrote:
Goblins are a fun army to play with IMHO.

I like to hold the enemy up with a wall of cheap infantry units and use trolls and giants to do the real damage.

War trombones and a Wiz or three can help chip away at enemy units whilst hiding behind your lines.

Overall it is a much easier army to play than the undead which rely on a bit of finess and surge tricks to get the most out of them.

The only issue is that you end up with a lot of units to paint.
So do they play as just a pure swarm army?
It seems that Goblins are something of a sleeper power list in the meta now, having won a weird number of very large tournaments. I'm not an expert, but from what I can tell it's due to having all the tools they need - blocks backed up by strong/spammable magical + breath shooting with a handful of fast(ish) heavy hitters + fast chaff - at very low points across the board. Arguably the reason Goblins haven't overrun the tournament meta is the significant amount of painting involved

- Salvage

BLOODFIRE: KOW SALAMANDER REPORTS 
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




Some people tend to think that to win you need things like heavy fliers (dragons, elohis, etc ...), and this might be one reason why goblins are not more prevalent, but even without allies they have a nice fast component in their list.

- They have a very decent and relatively cheap light cavalry with speed 9 that is almost as fast as similar fliers and can serve a similar role to gargoyles (for slightly more points, but not much and they are better fighters for the melee version, or equipped with bows for the ranged version)

- While chariots in KoW tend to be slightly underperforming because of their large footprint, the goblin chariots are as fast as their light cavalry with speed 9, so they can be used to counter most heavy cavs by threathening to charge them first, they can also serve themselves as a pseudo heavy knight unit (they dont have the def5+ of knights, but they still have TC(2)), and they still have bows so they can stand back and fire when you want to play defensively and force your opponent to advance

- cheap and fast mounted heroes to hunt war engines and other heroes

- Also don't understimate a king of chariot, he has 7 attacks with TC(2) but also a bow, so 7 shots with Ra4+, meaning that he can perfectly be used to snipe some chaff or even other heroes

But of course, there is also the matter of yellow bellied, probably one other reason why gobs are not as populars as they might otherwise, as it add to the army a random risk that is not to the tastes of everyone.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Enigmatic Exalted Daemon





Albany, NY

jtrowell wrote:
- Also don't understimate a king of chariot, he has 7 attacks with TC(2) but also a bow, so 7 shots with Ra4+, meaning that he can perfectly be used to snipe some chaff or even other heroes
There's a gent up here that often runs a goblin king on chariot with blood of the old king, mostly for fun but also for carnage when he zips into a flank! Great little unit.

- Salvage

BLOODFIRE: KOW SALAMANDER REPORTS 
   
 
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