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So I recently played a couple games of 8th against my friend who plays DE I had a couple tactical squads and compared to 7th they feel like they aren't doing anything. I had them on objectives and stuff but during the entire exchange of shots against kabalites I felt like nothing was happening.

Am I missing something or what?

If you field like 30 on an objective with rapid fire, that's 60 shots and that ought to do something.

Well with BS3+ you probably aren't missing something, but bolters aren't going to kill much even if you hit.

You need something like plasma+combiplasma in a 5-man to kill stuff. Even then the output is mediocre.

5 to 10 shots, hitting and wounding on 3s and they get a 4+ or 3+ save if in cover

that should be about it.

at range they should be killing 1-2 knifears

or up to 4-5ish in rapid fire

Cant expect them to wipe anything as they are just basic anti infantry as much as any other generic anti infantry

 fraser1191 wrote:
So I recently played a couple games of 8th against my friend who plays DE I had a couple tactical squads and compared to 7th they feel like they aren't doing anything. I had them on objectives and stuff but during the entire exchange of shots against kabalites I felt like nothing was happening.

Am I missing something or what?

There's a lot of that in the marine codex. You roll dice, nothing happens. Your opponent rolls four times as many dice, and you lose triple the points of dudes you were able to kill.

Yeah I had a plasma squad a Sarge and special weapon guy but after they killed the scourges that dropped down they didn't do much

I won this game only because it extended to turn six and got lucky on the card draw.

First game I had guilliman and it was relic so I was able to march my guys to the middle basically hitting everything and wounding every time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't want to have to take guilliman every time or spend 3 CP for the chapter master stratagem just to get the most out of my marines

 fraser1191 wrote:
Yeah I had a plasma squad a Sarge and special weapon guy but after they killed the scourges that dropped down they didn't do much

I won this game only because it extended to turn six and got lucky on the card draw.

First game I had guilliman and it was relic so I was able to march my guys to the middle basically hitting everything and wounding every time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't want to have to take guilliman every time or spend 3 CP for the chapter master stratagem just to get the most out of my marines

Dont you have calgar?

"I don't want to have to take guilliman every time "

Then get ready to lose like the BA are losing. That's the big difference between BA and UM atm.

You aren't missing anything. It's one of the worst unit profiles in the game and has been for years.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You aren't missing anything. It's one of the worst unit profiles in the game and has been for years.

Ha I wouldn't know I only started playing last year!

Tacticals pay a lot points for stats they can't use all at once.

 Desubot wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Yeah I had a plasma squad a Sarge and special weapon guy but after they killed the scourges that dropped down they didn't do much

I won this game only because it extended to turn six and got lucky on the card draw.

First game I had guilliman and it was relic so I was able to march my guys to the middle basically hitting everything and wounding every time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't want to have to take guilliman every time or spend 3 CP for the chapter master stratagem just to get the most out of my marines

Dont you have calgar?

Yeah and I actually had him for the second game. He punch a talos(?) And splattered it lol
But I sent my lieutenant with my intercessors so I was missing out on the wound rerolls.

Yeah, Tacticals really haven't done too terribly much for me as a BA player. The best thing they have accomplished so far in 8th is to kill a big unit of AdMech dudes, the Electro Priests or whatever. But, that took four 5 man squads shooting at them, 2 Rhinos shooting at them, and both Rhinos and all 20 Marines charging... And that was the turn after I fired 4 Frag Missiles into it.

Besides that I really just use them to fire at things they can reach from the objective they are planted on, or as meat shields to protect my Dread/Devastators from being charged.

Tacs are solidly a "meh" unit, and have been for at least 4 editions now.

I run them all the time to actively tone down my lists against less experienced players, but all they really do is fill a troops slot, everything else we have other units that can do what they do far better.

If you're running them, I wholeheartedly recommend 5 Marines with a Plasma and Combi-Plasma, preferably with rerolls. Make them as damaging as possible so your opponent is faced with a harder choice when deciding to either ignore them and take damage or divert fire from your real heavy hitters to swat them like flies.

 fraser1191 wrote:
So I recently played a couple games of 8th against my friend who plays DE I had a couple tactical squads and compared to 7th they feel like they aren't doing anything. I had them on objectives and stuff but during the entire exchange of shots against kabalites I felt like nothing was happening.

Am I missing something or what?

What are you arming them with, and how are you using them?

Getting the most out of tacticals can be a bit tricky. However, I've been using 4 full squads of them recently and I'm pretty happy with them. I'm using 4 identical 10 man squads with Grav-Cannon, Plasmagun and Combi Plasma. I figure this is the best well-rounded damage output they can get, and I believe this is also the most damage output for any troops choice for basic marines (I also play UM).

How I've been using them is a bit experimental and sure to be controversial, but I'm committed to it for at least a while to see how far I can take it. I take three Drop Pods, plus a Captain , Lieutenant, and an 8 man squad of Devastators. I split the Tacticals into Combat Squads, (depending on the mission and opponent) and I can choose to pack 4 Combat Squads with the Heavy and two specials into two Pods, and the Devs plus Captain (possibly Chapter Master) and Lieutenant into the third. The other four Combat Squads of bolters form up in the rear protecting more Devastators, etc.

Max Drop strike becomes 16 Plasma shots, 16 Grav Cannon shots, plus whatever the forward Devs are carrying (right now Im trying Pasma Cannons) potentially all rerolling to hit and rerolling ones to wound. Its 30 bodies in Power armor, which can hopefully land in cover, providing a reasonably tough forward firebase, and the Captain and Lieutenant provide some assault capability. The most damage output would probably have Devastators with Grav as well, for 32 shots total, but the range on the Heavy Plasma Guns can be useful.

I like this build because I dont have to commit to the big drop, and if I want I can just build a firebase of my own. Or I can choose different configurations for the drop, with or without the characters, and send different squad elements in. An extreme example would be that I keep all my fancy weapons on my side of the table, and send bolter marines and scouts at the enemy to assault them. Not likely to happen, but the option is there.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
So I recently played a couple games of 8th against my friend who plays DE I had a couple tactical squads and compared to 7th they feel like they aren't doing anything. I had them on objectives and stuff but during the entire exchange of shots against kabalites I felt like nothing was happening.

Am I missing something or what?

What are you arming them with, and how are you using them?

Getting the most out of tacticals can be a bit tricky. However, I've been using 4 full squads of them recently and I'm pretty happy with them. I'm using 4 identical 10 man squads with Grav-Cannon, Plasmagun and Combi Plasma. I figure this is the best well-rounded damage output they can get, and I believe this is also the most damage output for any troops choice for basic marines (I also play UM)

I really like the idea of grav cannons but I mainly play against DE, my Tau friend is moving back soon. Anyway DE have invuln saves out the ass so shooting a grav cannon vs shooting a HB is useless cause the only thing in that codex that has a 3+ save is incubi.
But this is great for against my Tau friend!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I love my marines but i think the boltgun needs to be at least ap-1

The challenge with tacticals is that you're paying for an extra point of S and WS, but don't often use it. They've also got a rather limited weapon load out.

The only advantage to bringing a ten man squad of tacticals is one less drop, and that doesn't even matter if you're putting them in Rhinos. In my opinion, either bring them in groups of 5 or not at all. You get a free sarge with a group of 5, and you can choose either a special or a heavy, plus upgrade the sarge.

Space Marines from a design point, seem intended to move forwards shooting their boltgun, then charge in and assault to finish off their opponent. That also fits their fluff. I think that what they really need is a standard chainsword for every tactical marine. That would give them double the attacks, and make them a decent threat in cc against anything that isn't a dedicated assault unit. Problem is, this tramples on the point of assault squads, who would look even worse in comparison.

Space Marines just have nearly twenty years of design baggage that is sort of screwing them over. They've got far too many units to choose from, and a lot of them overlap.

Seems to me like Lias, probably with sternguard, would do most of this for cheaper. Salamander or Imperial fists would also be an improvement damage wise if you like the drop pods.

That being said, i'm sure it's reasonably effective against people that aren't set up to block a deep-strike with scouts and whatnot.

jcd386 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
So I recently played a couple games of 8th against my friend who plays DE I had a couple tactical squads and compared to 7th they feel like they aren't doing anything. I had them on objectives and stuff but during the entire exchange of shots against kabalites I felt like nothing was happening.

Am I missing something or what?

What are you arming them with, and how are you using them?

Getting the most out of tacticals can be a bit tricky. However, I've been using 4 full squads of them recently and I'm pretty happy with them. I'm using 4 identical 10 man squads with Grav-Cannon, Plasmagun and Combi Plasma. I figure this is the best well-rounded damage output they can get, and I believe this is also the most damage output for any troops choice for basic marines (I also play UM).

How I've been using them is a bit experimental and sure to be controversial, but I'm committed to it for at least a while to see how far I can take it. I take three Drop Pods, plus a Captain , Lieutenant, and an 8 man squad of Devastators. I split the Tacticals into Combat Squads, (depending on the mission and opponent) and I can choose to pack 4 Combat Squads with the Heavy and two specials into two Pods, and the Devs plus Captain (possibly Chapter Master) and Lieutenant into the third. The other four Combat Squads of bolters form up in the rear protecting more Devastators, etc.

Max Drop strike becomes 16 Plasma shots, 16 Grav Cannon shots, plus whatever the forward Devs are carrying (right now Im trying Pasma Cannons) potentially all rerolling to hit and rerolling ones to wound. Its 30 bodies in Power armor, which can hopefully land in cover, providing a reasonably tough forward firebase, and the Captain and Lieutenant provide some assault capability. The most damage output would probably have Devastators with Grav as well, for 32 shots total, but the range on the Heavy Plasma Guns can be useful.

I like this build because I dont have to commit to the big drop, and if I want I can just build a firebase of my own. Or I can choose different configurations for the drop, with or without the characters, and send different squad elements in. An extreme example would be that I keep all my fancy weapons on my side of the table, and send bolter marines and scouts at the enemy to assault them. Not likely to happen, but the option is there.

Seems to me like Lias, probably with sternguard, would do most of this for cheaper. Salamander or Imperial fists would also be an improvement damage wise if you like the drop pods.

That being said, i'm sure it's reasonably effective against people that aren't set up to block a deep-strike with scouts and whatnot.

I'm not too familiar with him, but doesn't Lias require all "drops" to happen at once and within some range? Obviously hes efficient, but iirc there are some limitations. I also try not to hop chapters, but others are happy to switch around more.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
So I recently played a couple games of 8th against my friend who plays DE I had a couple tactical squads and compared to 7th they feel like they aren't doing anything. I had them on objectives and stuff but during the entire exchange of shots against kabalites I felt like nothing was happening.

Am I missing something or what?

What are you arming them with, and how are you using them?

Getting the most out of tacticals can be a bit tricky. However, I've been using 4 full squads of them recently and I'm pretty happy with them. I'm using 4 identical 10 man squads with Grav-Cannon, Plasmagun and Combi Plasma. I figure this is the best well-rounded damage output they can get, and I believe this is also the most damage output for any troops choice for basic marines (I also play UM).

How I've been using them is a bit experimental and sure to be controversial, but I'm committed to it for at least a while to see how far I can take it. I take three Drop Pods, plus a Captain , Lieutenant, and an 8 man squad of Devastators. I split the Tacticals into Combat Squads, (depending on the mission and opponent) and I can choose to pack 4 Combat Squads with the Heavy and two specials into two Pods, and the Devs plus Captain (possibly Chapter Master) and Lieutenant into the third. The other four Combat Squads of bolters form up in the rear protecting more Devastators, etc.

Max Drop strike becomes 16 Plasma shots, 16 Grav Cannon shots, plus whatever the forward Devs are carrying (right now Im trying Pasma Cannons) potentially all rerolling to hit and rerolling ones to wound. Its 30 bodies in Power armor, which can hopefully land in cover, providing a reasonably tough forward firebase, and the Captain and Lieutenant provide some assault capability. The most damage output would probably have Devastators with Grav as well, for 32 shots total, but the range on the Heavy Plasma Guns can be useful.

I like this build because I dont have to commit to the big drop, and if I want I can just build a firebase of my own. Or I can choose different configurations for the drop, with or without the characters, and send different squad elements in. An extreme example would be that I keep all my fancy weapons on my side of the table, and send bolter marines and scouts at the enemy to assault them. Not likely to happen, but the option is there.

See, now that's what I like to see. Your using them smart. Hell, I like that idea a lot, I may just steal it for my Salamanders. if only we could take heavy flamers as a heavy weapon option, that would be so sweet.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
So I recently played a couple games of 8th against my friend who plays DE I had a couple tactical squads and compared to 7th they feel like they aren't doing anything. I had them on objectives and stuff but during the entire exchange of shots against kabalites I felt like nothing was happening.

Am I missing something or what?

What are you arming them with, and how are you using them?

Getting the most out of tacticals can be a bit tricky. However, I've been using 4 full squads of them recently and I'm pretty happy with them. I'm using 4 identical 10 man squads with Grav-Cannon, Plasmagun and Combi Plasma. I figure this is the best well-rounded damage output they can get, and I believe this is also the most damage output for any troops choice for basic marines (I also play UM).

How I've been using them is a bit experimental and sure to be controversial, but I'm committed to it for at least a while to see how far I can take it. I take three Drop Pods, plus a Captain , Lieutenant, and an 8 man squad of Devastators. I split the Tacticals into Combat Squads, (depending on the mission and opponent) and I can choose to pack 4 Combat Squads with the Heavy and two specials into two Pods, and the Devs plus Captain (possibly Chapter Master) and Lieutenant into the third. The other four Combat Squads of bolters form up in the rear protecting more Devastators, etc.

Max Drop strike becomes 16 Plasma shots, 16 Grav Cannon shots, plus whatever the forward Devs are carrying (right now Im trying Pasma Cannons) potentially all rerolling to hit and rerolling ones to wound. Its 30 bodies in Power armor, which can hopefully land in cover, providing a reasonably tough forward firebase, and the Captain and Lieutenant provide some assault capability. The most damage output would probably have Devastators with Grav as well, for 32 shots total, but the range on the Heavy Plasma Guns can be useful.

I like this build because I dont have to commit to the big drop, and if I want I can just build a firebase of my own. Or I can choose different configurations for the drop, with or without the characters, and send different squad elements in. An extreme example would be that I keep all my fancy weapons on my side of the table, and send bolter marines and scouts at the enemy to assault them. Not likely to happen, but the option is there.

Interesting, I like your idea. I do something similar but with 2 Rhinos loaded with two 5 man Squads in each (two Combi-Plasma, Plasma squads in one. Two Inferno Pistol and Power Axe, Meltagun squads in the other), and a Twin Assault Cannon Razorback with a 5 man squad (Hand Flamer and Power Fist) and a support character to apply buffs.

I have just preferred Rhinos and Razors over Pods because I just love the way the Rhino chassis looks. I am probably going to use a 3rd Plasma squad in the Razorback though, since more often than not they hang back a little with the buff character. Once the BA Codex comes out, and if we get access to non-Primaris LT's that's probably what I will run with them, since the thought of Overcharging 6 Plasma Guns a turn still doesn't sit well with me for Marines, and the amount of 1's to wound I seem to roll with them is a constant source of frustration... If it was my Guard army though, Overcharge all day every day.