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Sorry for making yet another IG thread. I just wanted to gage some opinions about IG orders. Them being automatic, yay or nay? Initially I was happy they simplified them but now I'm worried it's OP. What do you guys think?

It's fairly disgusting, seeing as how it's automatic and company and platoon commanders are dirt cheap, but it's not really OP. Considering what a Space Marine captain or Chapter Master can do, combined with Chapter tactics and ATSKNF I wouldn't worry too much about your little guys getting a boost. In a world with Assault Cannon Razorbacks, Faith, Synapse, Mob Rule, Khorne Berserkers, Magnus, and all the other high powered rules out there, Orders feel just about right on power level.

Orders are not the OP issue with IG right now. Per fluff, and 40k continues to be a fluff driven game more and more, Guardsmen are conditioned to respond to orders without question or doubt. The old ld test never made much sense in that regard.

IG currently has "all the tools" to meet the win conditions of 8th edition, in the same way Eldar had "all the tools" to meet the win conditions of 7th.

IG had no practical mobility in 7th, and now has easy access to highly mobile units. 7th edition had units that were all but impossible to remove, but IG didn't. 8th edition has made everything vulnerable again, so that Hordes of dudes is the best defence against being immediately shot off the table. I think IG's combination of being a shooty-horde is what's letting them dominate right now.

And there's not much defence against being shot off the table right now, other than lots of dudes.

Several of the orders are so all-or-nothing that it seems like it'd be really annoying for both players to make them random. There are times when this is unavoidable -- as with charging -- but in general it rarely feels good to have a huge result depend on a single roll. Surely it is better to just have them always work and then balance around that.

Sound analysis guys. But being a shooty hoard army is the IG's raison d'etre. How do you fix them without taking that away?

About orders; trained as well as the IG are, battlefields are loud. Things could be misunderstood. When I worked as a garbage man sometimes I couldn't hear someone standing five feet away from me while beside the lorry. So there's some argument to be made for orders failing. But I'm worried about nerfing and rules bloat.

Since I think we should ditch conscripts, maybe their raw recruits rule should become the norm under the voice of command rule. But I'm not completely sure about it.

Personally I think they should have been turned into Stratagems (albeit very cheap ones you can use more than once, with that being IG's gimmick) since that's basically what stratagems are. However that would also severely nerf them so I don't think many IG players would be happy about that.

Yeah that might be a hard idea to sell. Even though it's sort of fair.

Here's an idea I've been working with. Officer picks one regiment infantry unit with 6" just as before. Vox casters eliminate that range altogether because they really should. Player rolls a D6. On a 4+ (or 3+?) order passes. If not, order fails and unit cannot be ordered again for the rest of that turn. The command re-roll stratagem will be useful here.

But again, I don't know if I could sell that idea to the wider community.

Would it be op to let the infantry orders be issued to chimeras, tauroxes and sentinels in this way, assuming they all count as having vox casters?

Would we also take away or nerf the aura buffs that other lists get?

Orders are fine atm to me atp.

I like the CONCEPT of orders being automatic, it allows people to plan more and we don't have to deal with more rolling to see if something happens.

But in the same way I liked the concept of templates being gone so we have faster games, GW fethed up. In this case by failing to nerf them because they're automatic now or by having actual balanced points on units.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Would we also take away or nerf the aura buffs that other lists get?

This, armies like space marines get all kinds of aura abilities that buff shots, attacks, strength, etc.

IG orders are our version of that. Other than 2 characters with Catachans and Yarrick we would have no way to buff our shooting to most of our army when almost every army has some sort of aura or pyschic ability to help them. Note I said characters, we have no generic units capable of providing rerolls other than Masters of Ordnance and fleet which help artillery and Valkyries respectively.

This means if we want our buffs we have to have officers for every unit we expect to order, which with an infantry army or tank line can mean quite a lot of officers.

The issue is the officers and the soldiers receiving the orders are too cheap, not the orders in and of themselves. This is what makes it so crazy. The only one that I could see a good argument is Get back in the fight, and thats mainly because we're the only army that have non fly units that fall back from combat capable of shooting normally, most get a -1 penalty. Change it to a similar penalty and it falls into line. Orders are also a way to allow IG more variance and playstyle and to help encourage non gunline play as several orders help with movement or combat.

A d6 is way too swingy for order tests too. Unless you make it a 2+ its going to be a 2/3 chance at best and that makes things way too random compared to how orders used to be. If properly planned for IG could basically guarnatee orders in the past anyways so its really no different than the previous system.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Would we also take away or nerf the aura buffs that other lists get?

I could get behind that. Either reducing the aura range to 3" or limiting the buff to just one unit.

 Quickjager wrote:
I like the CONCEPT of orders being automatic, it allows people to plan more and we don't have to deal with more rolling to see if something happens.

But in the same way I liked the concept of templates being gone so we have faster games, GW fethed up. In this case by failing to nerf them because they're automatic now or by having actual balanced points on units.

So you say the current orders are too op if they're automatic, but you'd rather they stay automatic?

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
Orders are fine atm to me atp.

They probably are fine really.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
The issue is the officers and the soldiers receiving the orders are too cheap, not the orders in and of themselves.

Honestly, I think that the main problem with Guard is that the game has a very badly developed sniping meta. If all races had access to decent snipers and they took up a key consideration in list building, then things like orders and Commissars would not be nearly as big of a problem. IG characters are some of the weakest in the game and even they rarely have to worry about being sniped. It would be like a list taking loads of armour, yet no one really bothering to take AT as it is expensive and not everyone has it. What I would do would be to increase the effectiveness of snipers and make sure that all races have some options in that department. If Guard start getting wiped because snipers are super effective, give command squads the old "look out sir" rule. It would at least give them a job that isn't being fancy sws.

I don't think the orders themselves are OP, but when you toss a force multiplier on a unit that already is great, and then you toss out other orders to a bunch of other units that are similarly good even WITHOUT orders then you need to scale something back.

Orders should stay automatic, but at this point maybe you should have to spend a CP past the 1st order to actually give orders.

 Quickjager wrote:
I don't think the orders themselves are OP, but when you toss a force multiplier on a unit that already is great, and then you toss out other orders to a bunch of other units that are similarly good even WITHOUT orders then you need to scale something back.

Orders should stay automatic, but at this point maybe you should have to spend a CP past the 1st order to actually give orders.

How about...no?

Orders should be automatic, I hate dice rolling for tactical decisions, the decision on which order to use should be the hard part, not the actual activating of the order. This is why rolling for which power or warlord you got was also dumb as hell.

The balance for IG should come from elsewhere

Orders being automatic last edition would've been fine if Guard were at the same durability level before. Now the orders are automatic and you need at minimum Rubric and Sternguard to ignore even their lowly armor.

People need to let go of the concept that IG are just an NPC faction. Should other factions' auras fail on a 1-2? What about mundane commands such as dismounting a unit from a transport, on a 1-3 the engine is too loud and everyone stays aboard for the rest of the turn. Absurd.

 MarsNZ wrote:
People need to let go of the concept that IG are just an NPC faction. Should other factions' auras fail on a 1-2? What about mundane commands such as dismounting a unit from a transport, on a 1-3 the engine is too loud and everyone stays aboard for the rest of the turn. Absurd.

I don't think anyone wants guard to go back to being an npc faction. But i always think of that part in the movie aliens where gorman (the lieutenant) is trying to give orders to apone (the sergeant) while vasquez and drake are 'illegally' firing in the background and making noise. It's worth considering.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I don't think the orders themselves are OP, but when you toss a force multiplier on a unit that already is great, and then you toss out other orders to a bunch of other units that are similarly good even WITHOUT orders then you need to scale something back.

Orders should stay automatic, but at this point maybe you should have to spend a CP past the 1st order to actually give orders.

How about...no?

Why not, a well built IG army is drowning in them anyway. So how about you explain your pov if that isn't too hard.

 MarsNZ wrote:
People need to let go of the concept that IG are just an NPC faction. Should other factions' auras fail on a 1-2? What about mundane commands such as dismounting a unit from a transport, on a 1-3 the engine is too loud and everyone stays aboard for the rest of the turn. Absurd.

You have auras as well that you don't roll for. You're taking a pumpkin and calling it an facist orange.

Orders are fine. Other armies have equivalent things, they just take different forms (Canticles, SM aura buffs and so on). Orders are just the IG version of this. Should a Chapter Master have to pass a LD test or spend a CP to hand out re-rolls?

Orders aren't really the problem. Most are pretty darn situational and the only one that people care about is FRFSRF, which just got it's first nerf.

Orders are strictly worse than the mass of re-roll auras which exist bloody everywhere. They're fine.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Orders aren't really the problem. Most are pretty darn situational and the only one that people care about is FRFSRF, which just got it's first nerf.

I don't know, Get Back in the Fight and Move Move Move can win games in my experience.

What would you guys have in place of the aura abilities? Maybe something like IG orders?

Like Cawl's Lord Of Mars ability could become 'select one friendly Mars unit during the shooting phase. That unit can reroll any hit rolls'. A nerf (only one unit affected) but also a buff (unlimited range).

Or...maybe even better...Cawl just gives you extra CPs. Maybe that's the solution?

First off, EVERYONE has Auras even IG. So that comparison people are making of IG Orders to Auras is dumb.

Second IG have their own version of Chapter Tactics, that is even better as well.

Third IG also have their own Psychic Powers, so no Orders replace that part of the game either.

Orders are essentially Stratagems now. The thing is that some of them are too weak to warrant even a CP and some of them are undercosted.

 Quickjager wrote:

Why not, a well built IG army is drowning in them anyway. So how about you explain your pov if that isn't too hard.

An IG army built on the most powerful archetype (quantity over quality) is drowning in CPs. A less powerful IG army is not.

A nerf which has a much bigger impact on less powerful armies is generally not a desirable one.

Not true, if you made it so that you had to spend more CP on orders past the first one then by having to give more orders you have to also spend more CP which a less numerous IG would not have to as they have more quality.