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With the FAQ, are there any huge benefits to taking a commissar now? No point taking them to support standard infantry squads because for 1 more power (we generally use power) you can just take an extra squad, the extra 1 leadership and the new ability just aren't worth it on them; you're either not losing enough models to matter either way or you're losing enough models that a reroll +1 casualty means the squad is screwed.

As for conscripts, you're again presented with the problem of 1 power difference between a commissar and 20 more conscripts. If you don't have a commissar and lose a handful of models you lose a handful more to morale, where the commissar will only lose a couple if only 1. But if conscripts are doing their job of getting murdered, say 15 of a 30 man squad, you're going to essentially lose the squad without a commissar vs have 5 or so survive. Which is stupid, because instead of buying a commissar and saving 14 conscripts you're buying a commissar and saving 5, and 5 conscripts are all but worthless. Much better idea to double down and just have more conscripts.

Is this logical thinking, or is there something I'm missing? I know, the commissar is an extra character that can fight, but have you seen a generic commissar's stats? A lot more 3's than I'd like to see and flak armor, so even with a power fist they're not going to be doing a whole lot, especially against actual melee troops/characters.

Draconian disciplinarian is nice, but if that's the case I'm taking a lord commissar to babysit 2 units of conscripts instead of yarrick/pask/creed as my warlord (I play cadian).

The +4 morale to the Conscripts is nice, and it means that they suffer fewer losses for morale than they would have. They still have a role with them - you just will probably see fewer soup lists spamming them to bubble wrap Guilliman or some other VIP.

As stated in the other thread, for units like Ratlings too, with a leadership of 5, they can also help stop a rout.

You are pretty much spot on with normal Infantry Squads, Veterans, and Scions though, might as well just grab a banner on a Command Squad if you really want the leadership boost. Same Power Rating, an extra wound, and 4 lasguns vs 1 bolt pistol, though it can be targeted from the word go.

For the points they cost they're still decent and useful. Not an auto-take of course but they're far from being useless.

kurhanik wrote:
Same Power Rating, an extra wound, and 4 lasguns vs 1 bolt pistol, though it can be targeted from the word go.

Since we play power that's not 4 lasguns, it's a lasgun and 3 plasma guns or 2 and a HF.

Power levels are a whole different story. They're not designed for games where you say: "are there any huge benefits to taking a commissar". Instead they're designed for games where you say: "Oh, cool model, i want to field it!"

Honestly, don't try and play Power Level competitively. If you're looking for major competitive advantages, you shouldn't be using Power Level, because Power Level is *ridiculously* vulnerable to being abused the second you start trying to break it down into granular comparisons of effectiveness.

(If you don't believe me, go try and write a tournament Deathwatch list using Power Level.)

 koooaei wrote:
Power levels are a whole different story. They're not designed for games where you say: "are there any huge benefits to taking a commissar". Instead they're designed for games where you say: "Oh, cool model, i want to field it!"

Why does using power have to mean we can't take the game seriously? It's just a way to throw together quick games, it's not inferior in terms of strategy.

Either way, your "point" is invalid. A commissar costs as much as 10 conscripts, so it's either 20 and a commissar or 30. When you account for more running sure, they'll disappear from the board as fast as the 20, but that's 30 lasguns you have to start with vs 20 and a much larger bubble.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Power levels are a whole different story. They're not designed for games where you say: "are there any huge benefits to taking a commissar". Instead they're designed for games where you say: "Oh, cool model, i want to field it!"

Why does using power have to mean we can't take the game seriously? It's just a way to throw together quick games, it's not inferior in terms of strategy.

Oh, you can take the GAME seriously, you just can't take the list-building seriously.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Honestly, don't try and play Power Level competitively. If you're looking for major competitive advantages, you shouldn't be using Power Level, because Power Level is *ridiculously* vulnerable to being abused the second you start trying to break it down into granular comparisons of effectiveness.

(If you don't believe me, go try and write a tournament Deathwatch list using Power Level.)

Again, not playing this at a powergaming tournament level, but since it's power I'm not allowed to even remotely try to make a better list? Not allowed to ask if it's better to run guardsmen or conscripts? I guess if my only goal is to create a fun list I might as well just take 10 units of bullgryns and 3 deathstrikes since those are my favorite models and completely abandon the forums.

 kingbobbito wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Honestly, don't try and play Power Level competitively. If you're looking for major competitive advantages, you shouldn't be using Power Level, because Power Level is *ridiculously* vulnerable to being abused the second you start trying to break it down into granular comparisons of effectiveness.

(If you don't believe me, go try and write a tournament Deathwatch list using Power Level.)

Again, not playing this at a powergaming tournament level, but since it's power I'm not allowed to even remotely try to make a better list? Not allowed to ask if it's better to run guardsmen or conscripts? I guess if my only goal is to create a fun list I might as well just take 10 units of bullgryns and 3 deathstrikes since those are my favorite models and completely abandon the forums.

I mean... Kinda, yeah, pretty much. You're 'Allowed' to do whatever you want, but it's not a good idea, because it goes against the core design concept at the heart of Power Level.

Power Level was designed to give an approximate semblance of balance so that players can build armies with themes or designs first, and competitiveness second, or third, or fourth, or just somewhere way off in the distance. You can optimize it if you really want to, but there comes a point where you have to either start self-limiting yourself, or just go whole-cheese and start breaking the game because Power Level is written with the assumption that players aren't going to be maximally optimizing every possible unit and upgrade, and has zero checks or balances in place to stop you from doing so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(All this being said: Comissars get worse in a PL game, because unless Battlescribe is telling me wrong, they cost 2 PL but are only a 30pt model - Meanwhile, Conscripts cost 4 PL for 30 or 3 PL for 20. Meaning that a Comissar costs 10:1 in points, but 15:1 in PL.)

Waaaghpower wrote:
I mean... Kinda, yeah, pretty much. You're 'Allowed' to do whatever you want, but it's not a good idea, because it goes against the core design concept at the heart of Power Level.

Power Level was designed to give an approximate semblance of balance so that players can build armies with themes or designs first, and competitiveness second, or third, or fourth, or just somewhere way off in the distance. You can optimize it if you really want to, but there comes a point where you have to either start self-limiting yourself, or just go whole-cheese and start breaking the game because Power Level is written with the assumption that players aren't going to be maximally optimizing every possible unit and upgrade, and has zero checks or balances in place to stop you from doing so.

And "commissar or not commissar" is whole-cheese? I don't run stuff with every possible upgrade and I have no idea what the power units are in my codex, all this thread was asking is if commissars are bad now.

 kingbobbito wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
I mean... Kinda, yeah, pretty much. You're 'Allowed' to do whatever you want, but it's not a good idea, because it goes against the core design concept at the heart of Power Level.

Power Level was designed to give an approximate semblance of balance so that players can build armies with themes or designs first, and competitiveness second, or third, or fourth, or just somewhere way off in the distance. You can optimize it if you really want to, but there comes a point where you have to either start self-limiting yourself, or just go whole-cheese and start breaking the game because Power Level is written with the assumption that players aren't going to be maximally optimizing every possible unit and upgrade, and has zero checks or balances in place to stop you from doing so.

And "commissar or not commissar" is whole-cheese? I don't run stuff with every possible upgrade and I have no idea what the power units are in my codex, all this thread was asking is if commissars are bad now.

Not by itself, but you're asking if a unit is 'Worth taking' while playing a game mode that needs players not to optimize.
Taking 15 extra Conscripts vs having a Commissar supporting a whole bunch of them (I'm assuming you want him to support 2-3 large squads) is going to result in a fairly minimal outcome that only really matters if you're going for top level competitive play. This kind of 'Getting every last bit of value out of my army' mindset is great and necessary if you're going to be playing a competitive game or at a tournament, but is directly at odds with the mindset of power level.

PL was designed to play without spending much time in list buildings, it's the beginners' way to play 40k since if you're new to the hobby it requires some time even to make a list that doesn't make any sense in terms of synergies. PL are only there to play faster and also to allow WYSIWYG without magnetizing the models or owning tons of them.

Dont ask what the commissar can do for you, ask what you can do for your commissar!

 kingbobbito wrote:

Either way, your "point" is invalid. A commissar costs as much as 10 conscripts, so it's either 20 and a commissar or 30. When you account for more running sure, they'll disappear from the board as fast as the 20, but that's 30 lasguns you have to start with vs 20 and a much larger bubble.

Comissar is also as effective as 3 of them when it comes to fighting and surviving. Besides, he statistically saves around 3 conscripts from each squad around him with leadership buff alone - of course if they suffer at least a couple casualties. So, he's effective when surrounded by 2-3 squads of conscripts. Also, he buffs ratling's ld significantly.

Another thing to consider is that he can take a relic that brings his old rules back.

Short answer: Commissars are still worth taking.

Long answer: Summary Execution, like Mob Rule in 7th, is a previously beneficial rule that is now a drawback rule. Do not be fooled into thinking that rule does anything positive in and of itself, so what you're comparing is Aura of Discipline with the competing morale boost, the regimental standard.

If you're playing power level though, there's another wrinkle: Commissars and Command squads are hurt by the fact that theyre priced according to upgrades available. The most worthwhile will likely be the Commissar loaded for bear with some upgrades (an excuse to use the sweet book reading powerfist sculpt).

kurhanik wrote:
The +4 morale to the Conscripts is nice, and it means that they suffer fewer losses for morale than they would have. They still have a role with them - you just will probably see fewer soup lists spamming them to bubble wrap Guilliman or some other VIP.

As stated in the other thread, for units like Ratlings too, with a leadership of 5, they can also help stop a rout.

You are pretty much spot on with normal Infantry Squads, Veterans, and Scions though, might as well just grab a banner on a Command Squad if you really want the leadership boost. Same Power Rating, an extra wound, and 4 lasguns vs 1 bolt pistol, though it can be targeted from the word go.

A squad of railings costs 4 points more than a commissar. Bring two ratling squads. They’re chaff anyway.

The only unit that a commissar benefits is conscripts. Everyone else he would actively hurt or doesn’t need him. He’s a terrible unit now.

Yarrick is still good but then again, you don't take him for his Commissar-abilities.

Commissars are pretty great with conscripts. +4 leadership bubble for 31 points? Sign me up.

Kinda wasted points elsewhere though, sadly.

I think I'm better off making one of my detachments a supreme hq with my primaris psykers and add an inquistor.

55 point hq giving a 6" aura of leadership 9 with psychic powers and has one of her psychic powers to make an imperial unit immune to morale.

Inquisitors are the new commissars I suppose.

I think they still have their uses, just no longer an auto take.

A lot of the salt is from players upset that the function of Commissars has changed slightly and no longer allows them to ignore an entire phase of the game for the entire army for a small handful of points invested.. Now IG have to take morale tests.. like every other army has to.

You don't want to fail a key morale test? Use 2 CP and auto pass like everyone else, it's not like IG are starved for CP's when most lists are easily able to achieve 12+ CP's before taking into account free relics and traits that allow them gain even more CP's

No army outside a few select units should be able to ignore morale, otherwise we'll end up back in 7th where 90% of the units you'd take were Fearless.

 argonak wrote:

kurhanik wrote:
The +4 morale to the Conscripts is nice, and it means that they suffer fewer losses for morale than they would have. They still have a role with them - you just will probably see fewer soup lists spamming them to bubble wrap Guilliman or some other VIP.

As stated in the other thread, for units like Ratlings too, with a leadership of 5, they can also help stop a rout.

You are pretty much spot on with normal Infantry Squads, Veterans, and Scions though, might as well just grab a banner on a Command Squad if you really want the leadership boost. Same Power Rating, an extra wound, and 4 lasguns vs 1 bolt pistol, though it can be targeted from the word go.

A squad of railings costs 4 points more than a commissar. Bring two ratling squads. They’re chaff anyway.

The only unit that a commissar benefits is conscripts. Everyone else he would actively hurt or doesn’t need him. He’s a terrible unit now.

Thats just factually wrong.

For infantry squads (and any other LD7 unit that caps at 10 models) he is still mathematically a benefit.
Not a very big benefit, but certainly not actively harmful. the scenario where the commissar does more harm than good to an LD7 squad that caps at 10 members, is exactly 8 deaths in one round from full squad size. every other scenario is either a small net gain, or a wash.
And even in that scenario, its a very tiny loss that is mathematically tiny, and it is definatly outclassed by the gains caused by 2-6 casualties (1 and 7 are a wash, 9 is irrelevant as the squad is wiped out either way.) and honestly, the 8 deaths scenario (and the 7 deaths scenario where he's merely a wash) is already practically a "squad erased" scenario for most purposes.
Anything with LD worse than 7 and/or less than 10 models, he's very good.

For conscripts, he's good.
For ratlings, he's good.
For special weapon teams, he's good
For command squads-he's good (though these guys can pick up flags, making him not useful for your nearby LD7 squads and less useful for your LD6 squads. not to mention now he's actually harmful to squads who are native LD8 and has a flag around.)
For heavy weapons squads-hes great. (makes them outright immune to moral)
Against any LD debuff that reaches the unit, but not the commissar-he's a great help.
Against any LD targeting attack-he's pure gain.

Even rough riders and sentinels gain from his presence, though he can't keep up with them.

Commisars are no longer brainless "always take, no reason ever not to spam the crap out of them", but they are still GOOD.
You just need to be smart about where and when to deploy them, because near the wrong teams, they are just not good enough.
They are NEVER determental, as its never worse to have one around than have nothing at all, its just that its not always the optimal unit to have around.


If you got the right army composition commissars are great.
If you got the wrong composition, they are usless.
In some EDGE CASES, they are outright harmful


Saying "A squad of railings costs 4 points more than a commissar. Bring two ratling squads." shows you have zero understanding on where and when you deploy a commisar.
He's not there to support a random ratling squad.
He supports two ratling squads and three heavy weapon squads-simultaneously. taking a third ratling squad instead of him means you give up on the LD support for three-five squads, not just one.
If your commissar isn't there to support three-four squads at a time, you are doing it wrong.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 argonak wrote:

kurhanik wrote:
The +4 morale to the Conscripts is nice, and it means that they suffer fewer losses for morale than they would have. They still have a role with them - you just will probably see fewer soup lists spamming them to bubble wrap Guilliman or some other VIP.

As stated in the other thread, for units like Ratlings too, with a leadership of 5, they can also help stop a rout.

You are pretty much spot on with normal Infantry Squads, Veterans, and Scions though, might as well just grab a banner on a Command Squad if you really want the leadership boost. Same Power Rating, an extra wound, and 4 lasguns vs 1 bolt pistol, though it can be targeted from the word go.

A squad of railings costs 4 points more than a commissar. Bring two ratling squads. They’re chaff anyway.

The only unit that a commissar benefits is conscripts. Everyone else he would actively hurt or doesn’t need him. He’s a terrible unit now.

Thats just factually wrong.

For infantry squads (and any other LD7 unit that caps at 10 models) he is still mathematically a benefit.
Not a very big benefit, but certainly not actively harmful. the scenario where the commissar does more harm than good to an LD7 squad that caps at 10 members, is exactly 8 deaths in one round from full squad size. every other scenario is either a small net gain, or a wash.
And even in that scenario, its a very tiny loss that is mathematically tiny, and it is definatly outclassed by the gains caused by 2-6 casualties (1 and 7 are a wash, 9 is irrelevant as the squad is wiped out either way.) and honestly, the 8 deaths scenario (and the 7 deaths scenario where he's merely a wash) is already practically a "squad erased" scenario for most purposes.
Anything with LD worse than 7 and/or less than 10 models, he's very good.

For conscripts, he's good.
For ratlings, he's good.
For special weapon teams, he's good
For command squads-he's good (though these guys can pick up flags, making him not useful for your nearby LD7 squads and less useful for your LD6 squads. not to mention now he's actually harmful to squads who are native LD8 and has a flag around.)
For heavy weapons squads-hes great. (makes them outright immune to moral)
Against any LD debuff that reaches the unit, but not the commissar-he's a great help.
Against any LD targeting attack-he's pure gain.

Even rough riders and sentinels gain from his presence, though he can't keep up with them.

Commisars are no longer brainless "always take, no reason ever not to spam the crap out of them", but they are still GOOD.
You just need to be smart about where and when to deploy them, because near the wrong teams, they are just not good enough.
They are NEVER determental, as its never worse to have one around than have nothing at all, its just that its not always the optimal unit to have around.


If you got the right army composition commissars are great.
If you got the wrong composition, they are usless.
In some EDGE CASES, they are outright harmful


Saying "A squad of railings costs 4 points more than a commissar. Bring two ratling squads." shows you have zero understanding on where and when you deploy a commisar.
He's not there to support a random ratling squad.
He supports two ratling squads and three heavy weapon squads-simultaneously. taking a third ratling squad instead of him means you give up on the LD support for three-five squads, not just one.
If your commissar isn't there to support three-four squads at a time, you are doing it wrong.

You say this in every thread and I just disagree, and we'll probably have to agree to dissagree. When you've got a 6x4 foot board, a 6" radius circle is just not going to be able to hit more than 2 or 3 units (at least the way my group is playing), and most of the units do not need a commissar. 1 Point of LD does not help an infantry squad much, not to mention the forced reroll with an additional casualty just hurts you for no damn reason. If I want one more point of LD, I'll bring a regimental banner and have a bubble approximately that can max out 14" radius for 3 less points. And it never blams people for no good reason either. Or I'll spend CP to upgrade a LRBT (which is looking actually like an awesome deal now).

Ratlings are an edge case, but they are not being deployed in large numbers (partly because they're generally not very good, but that's beside the point). Additionally they're usually being deployed in places the Commissar won't want to be using their special deployment option. My Ratlings are distractions to irritate my opponent into thinking his characters are threatened, but with a 36" range I generally don't worry about them getting shot, because if they are my opponent is wasting his better weapons on them.

I don't need him to babysit HWS. Its a waste. I'll bring more heavy weapon squads. My expensive HWTs are with the infantry squads, and I can buy another whole squad of mortars or HBs for the price of a commissar.My stance is simply that a commissar has such a small bubble with his one base that he will rarely support more than two squads, unless you're a castling hardcore in a corner and then no one probably wants to play you anyway.

Now I could be wrong. This is all math opinions as I haven't gotten a game in since the errata. But I'm going to start bringing a commissar LRBT and at least one regiment flag (which I used to never bring) and see how those work out for me. If GW erratas their errata to make the reroll not mandatory, then I might give him another try. But I don't think he's ever earning his points back with his new rules. He needs to save 8 regular guys, or a really good HWT to make himself worth bringing. Mine were rarely getting that done even before the nerf! Maybe I just suck at using Commissars.

Also, if you really want the commissar for the +Ld on infantry squads, I'd really recommend the Lord over the normal one now that they've nerfed Summary Execution. The Lord Commissar's 9 leadership, better save, better combat stats, and an additional wound are definitely worth the points compared to a normal commissar. If you need the +1Ld, might as well make it +2Ld and have a more survivable character to boot-- the better save and additional wound means it's harder to snipe down a lord commissar than a normal one. That's 20 points well spent, IMO.

Give him the Emperor's Benediction for that added threat to characters that try to hit your backline and he's a very flavorful character, too.

Of yours didn't even get THAT done before the nerf, you just used them wrong.

Prenerf a commisar saving 100 points worth of dudes wasn't too abnormal, and that's before you take into account said points are where it hurts the most, on an objective holder you couldn't shift ever.
Even if he saved mere 10 conscripts, he was a no brainer, and not getting 10 conscripts of value was hard, you could easily get that much in a single moral test.

Due to how casualties work, it's very easy to have your commisar hit 4 squads, he just need the corner of each squad to be within 10" of each other, and him in the center. Casualties are taken in the owners decision, so you'll never lose contact without some real fancy los shenanigans, or you screwing up getting assaulted.
If each of said squads is an ld6 or worse squad, and takes non-wipe casualties ONCE per game, he basically paid for himself.

Heck, being cheesy with lines I can get 8 conscript squads into a single commisar range without losing much in terms of squad deployment value.

The real value though isn't in actually saving models.
Even if he didn't save even one dude as your opponent focused fire beyond a squads survival zone , the fact your opponent did it rather than fan fire and forcing more moral checks, is on its own indirectly saving dudes.


Its possible your army composition just isn't where commisars shine
But you seem not to fully grasp thier effect regardless.

Personally I'm not taking any unless I'm doing narrative story based games. I have better use for the points now... like paying for 3/4 of another infantry squad.

No. They're worthless aside from fluffy games.

If you really need your morale fix, use a Stratagem or park an Officio Prefectus Command Tank within range for LD9 without being forced to reroll after a mandatory blamming.

Anyone who tells you Commissars are worth anything now? They do not play Guard and have no idea what they're talking about now.

 NurglesR0T wrote:
I think they still have their uses, just no longer an auto take.

A lot of the salt is from players upset that the function of Commissars has changed slightly and no longer allows them to ignore an entire phase of the game for the entire army for a small handful of points invested.. Now IG have to take morale tests.. like every other army has to.

You don't want to fail a key morale test? Use 2 CP and auto pass like everyone else, it's not like IG are starved for CP's when most lists are easily able to achieve 12+ CP's before taking into account free relics and traits that allow them gain even more CP's

No army outside a few select units should be able to ignore morale, otherwise we'll end up back in 7th where 90% of the units you'd take were Fearless.

I get the feeling you were pretty salty yourself about pre-FAQ Commissars.

Point is, (And I'm speaking as someone who never plays as guard, never plans to play as guard, and agrees that Commissars were OP and the codex in general is easily the strongest in the game right now,) Commissars didn't just get 'Changed slightly', they were kicked to the curb, as part of GW's long-standing tradition of taking anything they deem to be 'too' powerful and nerfing it so hard that even foam weapons would be better than what's left.

Commissars went from being able to provide a very powerful, extremely noteworthy buff to a lot of units, a valuable lynchpin in any army, to... Nothing. They provide a buff that can be found from one of a dozen other places, and a second buff that's actually detrimental to use in the majority of cases.

TL;DR HQ Lord Commissars still have great value. Elites Commissars not so much.

Elite Commissars are great for filling out brigades and can still be fairly handy if used correctly, but I do agree that unless you are running conscripts they aren't as useful