Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

A few examples.
A unit has 2x strength from power fist and +1s from some ability. Is it (s+1)*2 or s*2+1?
A commissar lets units use his ld as their own. They also stand next to a banner giving +1ld, or maybe they are a regiment that gives them +1ld. Does this mean (ld7 +1)->replace with commmisar ld8. or does it mean (ld7>replace with ld8)+1ld? Similar case as this can happen to ork mob rule followed by ld modifiers.

This confuses me. Are there any clear conventions here in the order that modifiers are applied?

You may also encounter abilities and rules that modify a characteristic. All modifiers are cumulative, though you should apply any multiplication or division to the characteristic (rounding fractions up) before applying any addition or subtraction.

Page 175.

Apply the double strength, then add the modifier.
(STR x 2) + 1

Their leadership is replaced. So without the banner, they have leadership 8. Oh hey? There's a banner, too? Neat. LD9.
(LD7 replaced by LD8) + 1

beast_gts wrote:

You may also encounter abilities and rules that modify a characteristic. All modifiers are cumulative, though you should apply any multiplication or division to the characteristic (rounding fractions up) before applying any addition or subtraction.

Page 175.

Thanks this clarifies modifiers in case of multipliers. I was at a tournament recently and one guy claimed that if a +1 modifier applies to a model stat it applies before multipliers, but if it applies to a weapon it is used after multipliers. I can't find this in any FAQ though, so I guess he was plain wrong. It was regarding Ad Mech, some protochol giving +1s that he used before weapon modifiers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 deviantduck wrote:
Apply the double strength, then add the modifier.
(STR x 2) + 1

Their leadership is replaced. So without the banner, they have leadership 8. Oh hey? There's a banner, too? Neat. LD9.
(LD7 replaced by LD8) + 1

Thanks that seem reasonable. Do you have any rule book page or FAQ reference where this is stated?

Gitdakka wrote:
Thanks that seem reasonable. Do you have any rule book page or FAQ reference where this is stated?

There is no specific rule because it isn't needed. The +1 would apply either way because it's not a one off thing, it's a continuous, always active +1. So even if you replaced "after" adding the +1, it would just be added again after replacing.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:
Thanks that seem reasonable. Do you have any rule book page or FAQ reference where this is stated?

There is no specific rule because it isn't needed. The +1 would apply either way because it's not a one off thing, it's a continuous, always active +1. So even if you replaced "after" adding the +1, it would just be added again after replacing.

This seems like it can lead to abusable situations in that case. Lets say some space marines has a rule that let them use a characters leadership (as the chaplain have i think). so the marines are now ld 9 instead of 8.
what happens if both units are affected by a banner that gives +1 ld. The chaplain becomes ld 10. the marines can use his ld so they get ld11 because 10 +1 for the banner affecting them aswell.

Can you see how this would be weird?

Surely there must be a way to determine if modifiers like this are applied before or after a stat is replaced?
The modifier does not even have to be from the same source, the example I gave is just to show the need for a rule.

I believe that if they're using the Chaplains Ld, at an effective 10, they couldn't add a modifier for a banner affecting their own unit. They aren't using their own Ld so any buffs to it are ignored. Only buffs to the Chaplains Ld count if that's what they're using.

Gitdakka wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:
Thanks that seem reasonable. Do you have any rule book page or FAQ reference where this is stated?

There is no specific rule because it isn't needed. The +1 would apply either way because it's not a one off thing, it's a continuous, always active +1. So even if you replaced "after" adding the +1, it would just be added again after replacing.

This seems like it can lead to abusable situations in that case. Lets say some space marines has a rule that let them use a characters leadership (as the chaplain have i think). so the marines are now ld 9 instead of 8.
what happens if both units are affected by a banner that gives +1 ld. The chaplain becomes ld 10. the marines can use his ld so they get ld11 because 10 +1 for the banner affecting them aswell.

Can you see how this would be weird?

Surely there must be a way to determine if modifiers like this are applied before or after a stat is replaced?
The modifier does not even have to be from the same source, the example I gave is just to show the need for a rule.

I believe the order of operations for modifiers specified set-changes came last back in 7th, but unfortunately there seems to be no such mention in any text in 8th. As an automatic thing, I've probably been playing it that way without realising it. Interested in an answer to this.

Gitdakka wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:
Thanks that seem reasonable. Do you have any rule book page or FAQ reference where this is stated?

There is no specific rule because it isn't needed. The +1 would apply either way because it's not a one off thing, it's a continuous, always active +1. So even if you replaced "after" adding the +1, it would just be added again after replacing.

This seems like it can lead to abusable situations in that case. Lets say some space marines has a rule that let them use a characters leadership (as the chaplain have i think). so the marines are now ld 9 instead of 8.
what happens if both units are affected by a banner that gives +1 ld. The chaplain becomes ld 10. the marines can use his ld so they get ld11 because 10 +1 for the banner affecting them aswell.

Can you see how this would be weird?

Surely there must be a way to determine if modifiers like this are applied before or after a stat is replaced?
The modifier does not even have to be from the same source, the example I gave is just to show the need for a rule.

Except the rule doesn't let you carry on to infinity like that.

You're making a mountain out a molehill here, there isn't a rule problem.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:
Thanks that seem reasonable. Do you have any rule book page or FAQ reference where this is stated?

There is no specific rule because it isn't needed. The +1 would apply either way because it's not a one off thing, it's a continuous, always active +1. So even if you replaced "after" adding the +1, it would just be added again after replacing.

This seems like it can lead to abusable situations in that case. Lets say some space marines has a rule that let them use a characters leadership (as the chaplain have i think). so the marines are now ld 9 instead of 8.
what happens if both units are affected by a banner that gives +1 ld. The chaplain becomes ld 10. the marines can use his ld so they get ld11 because 10 +1 for the banner affecting them aswell.

Can you see how this would be weird?

Surely there must be a way to determine if modifiers like this are applied before or after a stat is replaced?
The modifier does not even have to be from the same source, the example I gave is just to show the need for a rule.

Except the rule doesn't let you carry on to infinity like that.

You're making a mountain out a molehill here, there isn't a rule problem.

Ok. I can see why it is unreasonable one rule could be stacked twice. but would you agree there would be a problem if there was 2 entirely different sources of +1ld affecting two separate units? and one of them can use the other units ld?

The reason I'm bringing this up is mainly regarding the new rules for commissars and regimental standars. Some people claimed infantry squad could not claim both bonuses because they would occur in a certain order. I can not find any rule anywhere that decides the order in wich these buffs are applied. And also the guy I faced in the tournament got a +1s followed by*2 because some particular wording in a FAQ he refered to. I never saw this FAQ and now I can't find it anywhere. They might just be making rules up or reffering to definitions from 7th, but I'm confused and think it's justified to ask.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I believe that if they're using the Chaplains Ld, at an effective 10, they couldn't add a modifier for a banner affecting their own unit. They aren't using their own Ld so any buffs to it are ignored. Only buffs to the Chaplains Ld count if that's what they're using.

Just gonna repeat this...

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I believe that if they're using the Chaplains Ld, at an effective 10, they couldn't add a modifier for a banner affecting their own unit. They aren't using their own Ld so any buffs to it are ignored. Only buffs to the Chaplains Ld count if that's what they're using.

Just gonna repeat this...

I agree.
Unit A is supposed to used unit B's leadership. It also has an ability that increase its own leadership by one. This ability is irrelevant because the unit isn't using its own Ld value, it's using another unit's.

fresus wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I believe that if they're using the Chaplains Ld, at an effective 10, they couldn't add a modifier for a banner affecting their own unit. They aren't using their own Ld so any buffs to it are ignored. Only buffs to the Chaplains Ld count if that's what they're using.

Just gonna repeat this...

I agree.
Unit A is supposed to used unit B's leadership. It also has an ability that increase its own leadership by one. This ability is irrelevant because the unit isn't using its own Ld value, it's using another unit's.

Aight! This is reasonable to me and I'll settle for this solution. This would mean that when facing astra militarum, they can't stack banner and commissar ld effects (as they gain commisar ld and he is not regiment so can never gain banner bonus). This would mean gaining ld from another unit is applied last, after both units recieves all modifiers.

For example an ork unit of 5 kommandos is next to 10 boyz. The kommandos are affected with -1 from dark eldar shenanigans, reaching ld6 (ld7nob-1). The 10 boyz then adapt the mob rule and gain ld 10. Now they pass on their ld to the kommandos, making the eldar trickery redundant in this case and giving the kommandos ld 10.

this would also mean orks can't daisy chain mob rule ld past more than one unit

30 boyz<-6"->10boyz<-6"->10 boyz
becomes
ld30---ld30---ld10