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In looking through the previews for the new Eldar codex, it seems like they have a variety of options to snipe characters: rangers, Mind War, and the warlord trait. So that leads me to wonder - do you think that character sniping would be viable? If so, is taking down a massive target like Bobby G viable?

It is a tough call. In spite of the tools in our arsenal, Bobby is a tough target with a 2+/3++ save and he can pop back up if he gets killed the first time.

Even with maximum buffs, you would take several Mind Wars to kill him. How long would our fragile psykers last standing that close to him?

Get a Warlock, Hemlock, and Elldrad/Farseer.

Move the Hemlock to get the -2ld debuff by the character then cast the -1ld to the character too.

Cast the +2ld power on your Eldrad/Farseer.

Then cast Mindwar. That is a net 5ld difference. On a lucky roll you can one shot even Bobby G!

 Karhedron wrote:
It is a tough call. In spite of the tools in our arsenal, Bobby is a tough target with a 2+/3++ save and he can pop back up if he gets killed the first time.

Even with maximum buffs, you would take several Mind Wars to kill him. How long would our fragile psykers last standing that close to him?

The popping back up is an issue. Might be able to have it work over a couple of turns. But sniping every other non-resurrecting character...that still looks pretty good.

Considering how cheap Rangers are now, I think you could do it. I mean, snipers still give you those mortal wounds on 6's, right?

Instead of focusing just on Bobby G, I'd consider setting up an army that specializes in neutering all sorts of other characters. Space Marine captains are a very popular pick, and the Death Guard Codex is full of characters that enable all sorts of weird combos. Sniping those characters out gives you not only a points lead, but potentially Slay the Warlord early on, and reduces the efficacy of the rest of the army.

The numbers on snipers just aren’t very good, at least against T4 power armor targets like Space Marine captains.

Consider a full brigade with 6 units of 5 rangers.

(Also assume the character is standing in the open and not behind a razorback or something intelligent like that.)

That’s 30 shots, 20 hits, 10 wounds on a T4 target. Most likely one or two mortal wounds bonus added to that.

So if a character can make 10 armor saves, or even just 7 or 8 of those, he lives another turn. Long enough for your opponent to focus down those rangers with assaults or auto-hit weapons, or other things that negate their shrouding bonus.

Granted that odds are better against T3 guard characters, but you would think 30 rangers could be more of a threat.

Troops are a tax anyway, it's a bonus if they can accomplish something other than being in the way. Consider also that an opponent doesn't know whether you're going to get lucky with those Ranger shots or not, and might want to hide his characters better because of the risk. That in itself is an advantage for you.

I want to try the Mind War characters sniping, it sounds like it would be really fun to pull off, even if there are a lot of moving parts that can cause the plan to fail.

I'll for sure have 2-3 units of rangers. (if i play more CWE, i try to play more Harlequins and with Nids coming out my 1st love).

I'm not a tropp CWE player, i like the Bikes, heavys and elites. so having cheap troops as a real threat (even if its just 1 wound per turn from each troop, 3 wounds a turn) to me that is a win.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
The numbers on snipers just aren’t very good, at least against T4 power armor targets like Space Marine captains.

Consider a full brigade with 6 units of 5 rangers.

(Also assume the character is standing in the open and not behind a razorback or something intelligent like that.)

That’s 30 shots, 20 hits, 10 wounds on a T4 target. Most likely one or two mortal wounds bonus added to that.

So if a character can make 10 armor saves, or even just 7 or 8 of those, he lives another turn. Long enough for your opponent to focus down those rangers with assaults or auto-hit weapons, or other things that negate their shrouding bonus.

Granted that odds are better against T3 guard characters, but you would think 30 rangers could be more of a threat.

On average, a unit of rangers outputs something like .55 mortal wounds per volley, without buffs. So with those 6 units, you’d be looking at 3+ mortal wounds alone. Assuming I did my math correctly

Your math is correct. Over time you can expect about 3 -1/3 mortal wounds from 30 rangers for each volley.

There’s a really wide variance, though, where sometimes you’ll get a lot more and sometimes none at all. I was estimating conservatively by guessing at getting one almost all the time, a second one most of the time, and a third one nearly half the time.

One nice effect of Eldar character sniping though, regardless of how well it actually works, is that it will force some static gunline lists to modify their tactics. You can’t just leave the bubble character standing in the middle of the guns with that many snipers on the table.

Are eldar rangers BS3+, and sniping is a mortal wound on a 6 to wound? Is this in adition to regular wound potensial or instead?

With 9 shots, 6 hit on averadge, 1 of those 6 will cause a mortal wound.

Gulliman has 9 wounds. You would need 81 snipers to put 9 mortal wounds on him on averadge in 1 turn. But then he has the come back 50% rule. But in the other flip side you have 45 shots that might wound him that he can save against (or 54 if you stil have a chance to wound him.)

How much does a ranger cost these days? What is the AP of the weapon?

Is a ranger 12 points? 81 snipers is 'only' 972 points. Do the Autharch or sniper special character have acces to sniping? Can the Farseer help on rolls?

Gman is undercosted its not far to compare anything to him.

I think Rangers are an amazing troop pick for eldar now, but its not a must take, its just a viable option now.

Eldar can field Illic Nightspear for just 80 points.

hit on 2+ wounds on 2+ ap-3 and flat 3 wounds and can Mortal wound on 6.

For the average character he's pretty much death incarnate.

I don't think any of the options are a massively powerful anti-character tool, however with everything working together even tough characters have enough picking away at them to be very scared. And armies which spam cheap and fragile 30-40 point characters (looking my friends IG) are in for a world of hurt without the shooting protection provided by their mass infantry.

You can also field the index Autarch with a reaper launcher. It's a bit harsh to do so really. Or the jetbike one with a fusion blaster.

Illic in particular is really scary for smaller characters who don't have good invulnerable saves. Death guard, librarians, commissars (if they still exist), heralds and so on. Other people's warlocks probably won't like him much either.

So I have an Alaitoc army.. I'm thinking Illic, 10-15 rangers, and a shrouded Farseer deepstriking and mind warring has to have some potential, if not on warlords, then support characters.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
So I have an Alaitoc army.. I'm thinking Illic, 10-15 rangers, and a shrouded Farseer deepstriking and mind warring has to have some potential, if not on warlords, then support characters.

Im gonna chime in on the general consensus with my experience and say DONT rely on mind war on its own without comboing it with serious LD buffs/debuffs, if you are interested in a resilient strategy for dealing with characters.

The times I've used mind war (and purge soul for GK - identical power), I find myself regretting it as a choice for a psychic slot, the times it does nothing far outweigh the times it does something. There are just too many possible pitfalls to stop it working when you compare it with smite for example. At least when you modify LD values you give it the potential to be REALLY huge as well as more reliability on the roll-off.

For Grey Knights, taking the occasional Purge Soul is fine as everyone can choose a power pretty much. However for Eldar, taking Mind War on a Farseer is a significant investment of one of your two ROF power options on your expensive Farseer, and in competition with some other very effective powers.

Sounds good - I have a Hemlock I could bring in as well (I had a painted Alaitoc Hemlock when the model came out and rules were garbage, now both the plane and the trait are amazing, go figure).

embolden is your best friend with mind war for the Cost

 admironheart wrote:
embolden is your best friend with mind war for the Cost

Also the Ld buff from a Swooping Hawk Exarch is decent. Only +1 but its perfectly reliable, and Swooping Hawks are very cheap. Between that, Embolden and the Hemock that is a 5 point modifier, starting to get pretty nasty with that sort of potential. Just gotta get the power cast and not denied.

Well, I think its situational.
If you are able to go for the character kill (by making the math first), then go for it.
Otherwise, leave it. Kill the units that the character supports.

Yup, Embolden, Hawks and Hemlock make Mind War a fairly reliable way to snipe most infantry characters. They have the advantage that they are either cheap or good meaning you are no hindering the rest of your army by investing in them for a particular trick.

However don't both trying Mind War unless you have 2 (or preferably all 3) of these buffs in play. Unless you can stack the odds enough in your favour to make it reliable, other choices from RoF are better.

6 points mod if you give the hemlock horrify with hawk exarch and embolden.

One important thing missing from the discussion is the protect/jinx power which modifies save rolls, not saves. So that 3++ effectively becomes a 4++ which, if successfully manifested and not denied, makes a huge impact. But it might be difficult to pull off...

Farseer Naali wrote:
One important thing missing from the discussion is the protect/jinx power which modifies save rolls, not saves. So that 3++ effectively becomes a 4++ which, if successfully manifested and not denied, makes a huge impact. But it might be difficult to pull off...

There is a trick you can use to stop the enemy denying your runes of battle debuff. Take a warlock conclave and use the 'concordance of power' stratagem. Make sure you are sitting in the back more than 24 inches away from the enemy. You'll get a 36 inch cast range and cannot be denied if the enemy has no psykers within 24 inches of you, as per the rule. Just have to make sure you manifest it.

Conclaves aren't exactly ideal so I wouldn't take this as part of a standard list. However if I knew I was going up against a Mortarion or Magnus, or going for character sniping without spamming mortal wounds, probably worth trying to pull off with a cheap 2 man unit for that sweet -1 to their invuln save.

The other thing about MindWar I found out vs crons last nite. After I killed off his character in a small game on turn 2 I only had Doom and Smite to use for the next 4 rounds. It does suck that it can only target characters.