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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






So, between the Humble Bundle and Company of Iron, I've been reminded that I still have my Cryx and Blindwater armies tucked away. I never got rid of them or anything after I just kind of got tired of the game back in late 2013. So, I start trawling through the online communities to see what things are like and how people are enjoying Company of Iron.

And things are...well...discouraging and confusing.

For one thing, I've found no reviews of Company of Iron. Early days yet, I know, but I expected someone would have done a "Got my box on Thursday, tried a few games Friday afternoon!" review or write-up. Can anyone point me to something like that, or care to share their own experience?

Also...apparently Mk3 is very bad? But it's been out too long for people to explain WHY it's very bad, just that now it's bad because the fix attempts are Theme Lists. Can anyone give me a brief rundown on the state of Mk3, why it's catching so much salt online, and how it differs from Mk2?

I ask, because another friend has remembered he still has his Cygnar, and Company of Iron sounds right up our alley. Anyone want to help us decide if its worth coming back, and maybe help ease our transition if we do?
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight




The rules are free so just try CoI for yourself.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Leo_the_Rat wrote:
The rules are free so just try CoI for yourself.


(A) I haven't played in 4 years and I don't think a rules variant is the place to jump in.

(B) I'm pretty sure there's some cards you have to buy to be able to play.

I'm hoping for both an overview of the current main game rules and the impressions of CoI from someone familiar with the current rules.
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight




All the rules and cards for Mk3 are available for free. Since you and your friend have the models you can try the game out at no cost to you (other than time). Why wait for someone to tell you something when you can see for yourself? Just go to the PP website and you'll find them there.

As for CoI it will probably be at least a week before people will have a good sense of the system and that's if they put a lot of effort into playing CoI.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/28 19:17:33


 
   
Made in gb
Screaming Shining Spear





I think a lot of the salt thrown at Mk3 was

a) usual edition change grumps

b) PP handling the truth awkward by telling fibs about how extensively tested everything was and how peachy the balance was, Skorne players wildly disagreed, then one of the 'new' releases a Circle caster was meta-warpingly bonkers and had to be massively dialled back, along with her chikken beasts, kind of dissproving the whole 'tested to limits' PR boswellox

c) the nasty crap plastik the new starter box models are made

But like Leo said all the rules and pdfs are on the PP site so you can give Mk3 a whirl for free

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





Turnip Jedi is completely right. That being said, SR17 is a great environment to game in, and the scenarios are alive. I think the game is tremendous fun, but it does seem to have trouble retaining new recruits. I think warmachine is where 40k was in 3rd edition

The only thing in a man that is a man is his mind. Everything else you can find in a pig or a horse. 
   
Made in se
Swift Swooping Hawk





MkIII isn't bad, in fact, most people I've heard say it's better than MkII. I think so too.

PP didn't handle the transition very well though, and the Skorne problem was painful.

One big difference is that warjacks are more viable now, since they automatically get a focus each turn if they're in their warcaster's control range. Overall, there weren't the huge amount of changes that MkII brought, but some models and units were changed drastically, some abilities were overhauled, the faction power rankings rearranged.

Craftworld Sciatháin 4180 pts  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 Cream Tea wrote:

One big difference is that warjacks are more viable now, since they automatically get a focus each turn if they're in their warcaster's control range. Overall, there weren't the huge amount of changes that MkII brought, but some models and units were changed drastically, some abilities were overhauled, the faction power rankings rearranged.


Interesting. Is there something comparable for warbeasts.

Is there a site that put up a list of changes from Mk2 to Mk3?
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





There is a change for warbeast but it's negligible compared to Power up (the free focus): you can (if you want) leach 1 fury from each of your dead beasts. So even a Warlock with no Warbeast still has some fury.
Also a big change to how unused focus helps warcaster survive, now it's “Spend one focus, gain +5 armor against one attack”. You spend after the damage is rolled iirc.

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Sabbat-pattern helmets best helmets.
MER IL ET FOU!!! 
   
Made in se
Swift Swooping Hawk





 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
There is a change for warbeast but it's negligible compared to Power up (the free focus): you can (if you want) leach 1 fury from each of your dead beasts. So even a Warlock with no Warbeast still has some fury.
Also a big change to how unused focus helps warcaster survive, now it's “Spend one focus, gain +5 armor against one attack”. You spend after the damage is rolled iirc.

It's not actually armour, you spend one focus to reduce the damage from one damage event by 5 (if the damage dealt was 5 or less you reduce it to zero, any excess prevention is lost). You do it after damage is rolled, and only once per damage event, which means an attack that would cause 6 or more damage can't be fully prevented this way. It works a bit like transferring damage like a warlock does, but not to a warbeast, and max 5 damage. Warlocks still transfer like before.

Many more things now require you to be "completely within" rather than just "within" things to get a bonus. Terrain and cloud effects work like this. You still suffer the movement penalty for terrain even if just touching, but you don't get cover or concealment from it.

Far fewer things remove upkeeps now, so those are better. The things that do remove upkeeps generally remove just one.

Fewer things now ignore stealth, though many still do. For many armies it's easier to remove stealth from a single model and kill it than to kill hordes of stealthed models.

Morale is gone. Everyone is basically fearless. Command stat is still used for unit coherency and some special rules.

Some power attacks have been removed, the most common are still there.

Back strikes are easier to get, you only need to be completely in their back arc now. No need to start there.

The cards aren't provided with the models anymore. You can use War Room 2 or download them as PDFs for printing.

Oh yeah, one of the big ones is you can now measure any distance at any time. No more guessing.

Points values are higher across the board, 75 points is the new 50 points. Warcasters/warlocks have much higher WJP/WBP.

Having your SPD reduced doesn't prevent charges anymore.

Frenzying is simplified.

There are various new icons added and removed. Most new icons are just old rules made into icons (and sometimes changed a bit), like blessed, assault, disruption etc.

I think those are the most important ones. Apologies if I missed something or otherwise screwed up.

Craftworld Sciatháin 4180 pts  
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 Cream Tea wrote:
The cards aren't provided with the models anymore.

Unless you are in France.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/31 01:26:03


Feminism is good. Racism is bad.
Sabbat-pattern helmets best helmets.
MER IL ET FOU!!! 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Thanks for the info, guys. Looks like it might be worth digging my models out of storage so we can give the game another try.

How's the power balance between forces these days? Is this CID stuff working?

Oh, and Theme Forces seem to be a major part of the game balance now...or am I reading it wrong? It looks like you get a lot of free stuff for going theme. Are basic force lists armies worth it the variety now?
   
Made in us
Purged Thrall





FL

I think most of the faction balance is good. Cryx is sligjtly ahead due to at least one really good theme (ghost fleet), which centers on revenant crew of all fhings.

While they haven't said so, themes allow PP to break the major factions into subfactions which can be much easier to balance then trying to compare nearly 100 at once when a new release rolls around. This idea is kind of supported by PP saying they will be doing lots of mini factions (grymkin last, crucible guard coming up).

You can certainly play out of theme, but now all models fall into at least one theme in a faction. Initially in mk3 even 75 points felt very tight, you didn't get all the support you wanted. Themes kind of relieve that by allowing you free (usually support, attachment, or solo) models.

Themes come in generally 2 flavors: warjack/beast heavy, or infantry heavy. Your amount of free models is based on how many points of either you take (generally 1 to 4 free models). They also now allow one minion/merc model and solo to be added.

Realistically, unless the combo or models you have aren't supported, theres no reason not to play in theme. But in general you should be able to pick a caster, then a theme that supports what you want (jacks or infantry), and be able to pretty much build the list you want anyway.
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight




You missed a very important thing about themes now, they are not caster specific. Most casters can be played in almost any of their faction theme lists There are a few lists restricted to a few casters (mostly in Mercs) but by and large you can put whichever caster you like into a theme list.

Also the usual restriction is 1 Merc/Minion solo and 1 Merc/Mindion unit per theme.
   
Made in us
Pewling Menial




CID is also working very well in providing balance. The game is a lot more fluid than before, but in my mind for the better. Warmachine is being treated as an analog/digital hybrid product and its fluidity has positives and negatives but from my experiences the positives greatly outweigh the negatives.

 
   
Made in ie
Calm Celestian





As someone whos more or less dropped out of the game completly all I can say is that it's not a game I'm investing anymore.

I dislike the push towards themes and its pretty much killed the game for me. I know nothing is forcing me to play in theme but I feel like I'm disadvantaged by not doing so. Mk3 just feels bland somehow. Probably even more so with themes because it pidgeon-holes your army into a certain style of play.

Discussion of the game has pretty much died out online as well because there's nothing to talk about unless your faction has a CID going on.

Lastly, the launch of Mk3 was not shakey, it was disasterous and chased a lot of people away. This was compounded when they scrapped the Press Ganger system. The CID is about the only thing they've done right.

   
Made in us
[DCM]
Abel





Washington State

 Sim-Life wrote:
As someone whos more or less dropped out of the game completly all I can say is that it's not a game I'm investing anymore.

I dislike the push towards themes and its pretty much killed the game for me. I know nothing is forcing me to play in theme but I feel like I'm disadvantaged by not doing so. Mk3 just feels bland somehow. Probably even more so with themes because it pidgeon-holes your army into a certain style of play.

Discussion of the game has pretty much died out online as well because there's nothing to talk about unless your faction has a CID going on.

Lastly, the launch of Mk3 was not shakey, it was disasterous and chased a lot of people away. This was compounded when they scrapped the Press Ganger system. The CID is about the only thing they've done right.


You are absolutely playing at a disadvantage if you are not using a Theme list. Too many have free models or in game bonuses that can and do affect the game.

After shutting down the official faction forums and moving the discussion to social media, PP has killed any kind of two way communication between the players and staff. There are Facebook groups all over the place dedicated to Warmachine and Hordes. It's fractured the player base into hundreds, if not thousands of smaller groups, and each one thinks they know how to play the faction to it's fullest potential. Good luck if you post anything contrary to the groups popular opinion! PP issued a statement on Facebook a couple months ago asking people to stop directly contacting staff on Facebook about the game... yet that's what they wanted the players to do when they killed their own forums!

The MK III release was a disaster. And after only a handful of faction books and zero theme army books, all promised when MK III was released, they canceled the books and announced no more books. So where do you go for your fluff now? The novels and short stories- hope you like Cygnar or Caine! Or you can pick up the bi-monthly No Quarter for $6.50/issue... or pay $50 for a years subscription (I'll do the math for you. $6.50 x 6 = $39, or you can get a one year subscription of six issues of the magazine for $50. More if you want a digital copy). And again, that fluff is targeted to whatever is being released that month.

My loathing for the CiD knows no bounds. It's a sham. A way to dupe the player base into staying with the game and fooling them into thinking they have some kind of buy in for the game. Hah!

It's still a good game, and plays well enough, but there are a lot of other choices out there now. While none of them are perfect, they are not nearly as imperfect as Warmachine/Hordes.

Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight




The new No Quarter Prime is $9 per issue so a year long subscription is a deal $50< $54.

Just to clarify one of your facts.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




My feelings towards WMH are mixed. Love the game, love the RPG and the setting, love a lot of the models, but I am all but dropped away from the ‘proper’ steamroller style game. Partly this Is due to personal issues – not having time to go to the store and meet the WMH players, and my main gaming buddies not really being interested in the game and being more interested in historicals, especially those by Warlord – Test of Honour and Bolt Action being the current favourites. I suspect strongly they will have a lot of time for Company of Iron however, which is where I see myself putting my time and energy going forward.
The main reason I have dropped off is the investment required (ie time!) to play the game at a proper level, having only been semi-active the last three years. Depending on perspective, the game has expanded hugely (or bloated hugely) in that time, and my personal thoughts are that PP need to gut the game down to make it manageable and enjoyable again. The release of grymkin this year with the promise of ‘one new faction every year’ has me concerned – even more of an investment barrier in terms of the knowledge burden to getting involved again. It’s a direction I’m really not fond off-I’d rather they focused on the main factions rather than focusing their resources on this.


Sim-Life
As someone whos more or less dropped out of the game completly all I can say is that it's not a game I'm investing anymore.
I dislike the push towards themes and its pretty much killed the game for me. I know nothing is forcing me to play in theme but I feel like I'm disadvantaged by not doing so. Mk3 just feels bland somehow. Probably even more so with themes because it pidgeon-holes your army into a certain style of play.
Discussion of the game has pretty much died out online as well because there's nothing to talk about unless your faction has a CID going on.
Lastly, the launch of Mk3 was not shakey, it was disasterous and chased a lot of people away. This was compounded when they scrapped the Press Ganger system. The CID is about the only thing they've done right.


The downside to themes is that, as you say, the game has become about themes, as so many of them come with so many inherent advantages, that playing any other way is handicapping yourself for no reason. That said, there is the advantage of themes in that it allows PP to ‘break down’ the large/bloated (depending on POV) factions, and treat the themes as mini-factions. I do think this is a good thing, or rather, it’s the best way of managing the current sheer size of the individual factions. Like I said, I’d rather a proper ‘re-set’ and gut a lot of the things there. But hey, that’s just me.
I don’t think Mk3 is bland – I think a lot of players were simply used to Mk2, and its simply a case of ‘change’ more than anything else. Similarly, I think a lot of the shedding on players at the edition change could simply be due to this as well. The launch of Mk3 had issues, but to be fair, PP did about as well as anyone could be expected to do considering the size of the game, as well as maintaining a commitment to legacy models/units.
I have no issues with them getting rid of their forums – the PP boards were extremely negative, toxic and utterly choked with group think and an absolute dearth of creativity. Good riddance. Press ganders were a mixed bag. As much as I thought the programme was a good thing, and the grassroots support they had in mk2 was a huge plus for the game, I am aware of more than a few horror stories of pressgangers that did no end of harm to the reputation of our community.

Tamwulf
You are absolutely playing at a disadvantage if you are not using a Theme list. Too many have free models or in game bonuses that can and do affect the game.
After shutting down the official faction forums and moving the discussion to social media, PP has killed any kind of two way communication between the players and staff. There are Facebook groups all over the place dedicated to Warmachine and Hordes. It's fractured the player base into hundreds, if not thousands of smaller groups, and each one thinks they know how to play the faction to it's fullest potential. Good luck if you post anything contrary to the groups popular opinion! PP issued a statement on Facebook a couple months ago asking people to stop directly contacting staff on Facebook about the game... yet that's what they wanted the players to do when they killed their own forums! https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/053f30f6773034eb25223d86f0e00d8d.gif


To be fair, the PP boards were no different to how you describe the smaller groups– there was nothing of note there, bar an echo chamber subscribing to group think, along with a huge amount of negativity and salt. I have no issues with them getting rid of the faction forums – in my mind, they added very little to the game, and boiled the creativity and exploration of the game down to ‘you’re new? Cool. Take Haley 2 with ‘this list’. Don’t bother with anything else. And off you go’.

The MK III release was a disaster. And after only a handful of faction books and zero theme army books, all promised when MK III was released, they canceled the books and announced no more books. So where do you go for your fluff now? The novels and short stories- hope you like Cygnar or Caine! Or you can pick up the bi-monthly No Quarter for $6.50/issue... or pay $50 for a years subscription (I'll do the math for you. $6.50 x 6 = $39, or you can get a one year subscription of six issues of the magazine for $50. More if you want a digital copy). And again, that fluff is targeted to whatever is being released that month.


I have no great issues with the Mk3 release – like I said, I think they did about as well as could be expected (then again, ive never been a Skorne player!) considering both the size of the game and keeping legacy aspects relevant - but then again, I'm of the view that table top wargames are a very limited medium to work with and you can only any of them 'so far' before issues come to the fore. However, I agree with you completely about the lore. I loved the MK2 faction books for the lore as well as the story. The novels and short stories are a mixed bag – some are excellent, and I would recommend them to anyone (love the IK excursions, and NQ collections, the Larry Correia books, extraordinary zoology, most of the warcaster chronicles and the recent blood of kings was brilliant), and some (the taryn and rutger books and a fair few others. Acts of war was a huge disappointment because as soon as the lore took a step forward – toruk assaulting the mainland etc, plot happened and the game world reset almost to Mk1 – khador retreating from the thornwood, toruk hiding in cryx – for me, the ‘plot moving forward’ was one aspect I loved and made it distinct from 40ks all-but-stagnant setting. Heck, it feels 40k’s lore is now moving forward, not WMHs!) aren’t great, or are flat out terrible. I’m really not a fan of stryker in his books – a bit of a whiny emo moaner if you ask me and a really terrible poster-boy for the lore. Caine is great or flat, depending on who writes him – like I said, loved blood of kings. Moving the lore to the novels was generally a big step back in my mind. I have no issues with No Quarter – I’ve been buying it for a long time and will continue to do so, and never really had issues with the lore components it contained – guts n gears, the Gavyn kyle files etc.

My loathing for the CiD knows no bounds. It's a sham. A way to dupe the player base into staying with the game and fooling them into thinking they have some kind of buy in for the game. Hah!
It's still a good game, and plays well enough, but there are a lot of other choices out there now. While none of them are perfect, they are not nearly as imperfect as Warmachine/Hordes.


I’m not involved with CiD in any way, but would be interested to hear more of your thoughts on it – have you been involved in it? Is the player feedback not listened to? I can appreciate though from PPs perspective that there might be a lot of noise to signal in the feedback, but if you have first hand experience, would you mind telling me about it?

The sad thing is I agree with you in how you describe WMH – ‘imperfect’ sums it up nicely. I loved the game, and spent most of Mk2 promoting it. I can’t bring myself to do that anymore – due to its size, its not friendly to new players any more. That said, I think Company of Iron is very interesting, and can be built into the kind of small-scale skirmish level game with themed, narrative focused forces that me and my group enjoy, with very little effort, and will probably focus on that myself for the foreseeable future. Its gotten me interested in WMH again (even though the fact that it’s a WMH-variant rather than 'proper-wmh is what I find appealing). I am tidying up my Retribution at the moment, and will probably continue to invest and expand that (need some dawnguard and ellowyr swordsmen), along with my Tharn (need more bloodweavers, a shaman and the night witch) with the focus on COI skirmishes. My Khadoran army is quite large and I don’t think I need to put in too much more work into it. But I cant see myself going back to steamroller any time in the near future.

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