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Made in gb
Norn Queen






tl;dr Pivoting and moving a Land Raider 10" forward is actually breaking the rules of the game.

Posting here because it's not a Rules Question, more a PSA that the old method of pivoting your Land Raiders not only can't grant you "extra" movement anymore, but in fact you can move far less than you thought. This is going to be VERY IMPORTANT.

Scenario: You have a Land Raider sitting there being all Land Raidery. You decide something needs killing but it's out of range, so you pivot 90 degrees and proceed to move your nice and comfortable 10". "But Raz... I mean BaconCatBug" I hear you say, wouldn't that cause you to have part of the model moving more than 10"?

Yes, yes it would.

The following is a Land Raider, drawn to scale in GIMP using "Inches" as it's internal measurement (downscaled to 40% for convenience, but a scale is included). I used the Border tool to plot all points that are 10" or less away from the hull.
http://prntscr.com/h9z78w

This blue area indicates all positions the Land Raider can legally move to, remaining wholly within that blue area.

Next I pivoted the Land Raider (and zone) 90 degrees, made it the fast colour and superimposed it over the legal movement area if you decided to move 10" forward or backwards from there.
http://prntscr.com/h9z94g

As you can see, that is a WHOPPING 1.79" of difference. To reiterate, anything not inside the blue area is an illegal move (unless you advance but we're talking about normal movement right now).

So, the conclusion that if you want to pivot any non-circular model, or one that measures to the model instead a base, you need to take into account the shape and not use the old standard of pivot then move. Remember kids, Land Raiders may only move 8.21" after pivoting!

I am thinking, perhaps it might be useful to make a table for all non circular models? I for one would find it useful to make sure I don't over-move my models. Almost 2" is not a negligible amount that can be ignored. Surely this problem is going to be even worse for things like the Dark Eldar Raider, which are faster and more long than wide?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/13 17:59:04


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Made in ca
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





London, Ontario

Would the amount of extra distance not change, depending on the degrees of rotation? For example, turning 5 degrees would only impact a small amount.

I would suspect that the simplest thing to do would be to measure your 10" before pivoting, and then move the front of the model to that point. For example, if you were to "turn" 90 Degrees, Just measure from the side of the hull to a point 10" away, then move the nose of the vehicle to that point.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

This is why all my vehicles are in bases... (I know you are suppose to measure from the hull, but we house rule to measure from the base. It works for AoS, it works for 40k)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/13 18:05:28


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
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Made in gb
Norn Queen






 greatbigtree wrote:
Would the amount of extra distance not change, depending on the degrees of rotation? For example, turning 5 degrees would only impact a small amount.

I would suspect that the simplest thing to do would be to measure your 10" before pivoting, and then move the front of the model to that point. For example, if you were to "turn" 90 Degrees, Just measure from the side of the hull to a point 10" away, then move the nose of the vehicle to that point.
1) Yes. That's why I use 90 degrees as an example, it's the most extreme.

2) Yes, that is exactly how you should do it, but lots of people still use the old method when it's actually wrong.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/13 18:05:39


 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

In Warhammer Fantasy when moving you need to count the movement from pivoting the unit. So if your squad do a 90º turn and move 3" with a 6" movement they only could move 3".
I suppose this is how vehicles work now too.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 greatbigtree wrote:
Would the amount of extra distance not change, depending on the degrees of rotation? For example, turning 5 degrees would only impact a small amount.

I would suspect that the simplest thing to do would be to measure your 10" before pivoting, and then move the front of the model to that point. For example, if you were to "turn" 90 Degrees, Just measure from the side of the hull to a point 10" away, then move the nose of the vehicle to that point.


Yes, this is the simplest way of doing it. Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels. It is not like vehicle orientation has a significant impact on the game anyways.
   
Made in ca
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





London, Ontario

There's no fixed distance, it would depend on the width of the model.

And, for what it's worth, facings don't matter, and everything has 360 degree fire arc... so just pick a position you like at the start and slide around like a hover tank.

Ninja'd... I don't think this is a big issue in the greater world. Might be meta.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/13 18:11:43


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





That's why with things like tanks, I measure from the center of the model.
No matter how you turn it, the center is still the center and in the same place. So as long as at the end of your move, the new center is 10" or less, you are good.

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Fixture of Dakka






Falls Church, VA

kaotkbliss wrote:
That's why with things like tanks, I measure from the center of the model.
No matter how you turn it, the center is still the center and in the same place. So as long as at the end of your move, the new center is 10" or less, you are good.


Sadly this still doesn't work, as it's possible for the ends of the tank to pivot around the center and move further than 10", even if the center of the vehicle only moved 10" or less.

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Imperial Admiral






kaotkbliss wrote:
That's why with things like tanks, I measure from the center of the model.
No matter how you turn it, the center is still the center and in the same place. So as long as at the end of your move, the new center is 10" or less, you are good.

Nope, in some circumstances you are now cheating because you are moving further than permitted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
pismakron wrote:
Yes, this is the simplest way of doing it. Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels. It is not like vehicle orientation has a significant impact on the game anyways.

Yep, this is the advantage to balance things out - it's now much harder to lock a vehicle in place.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/13 18:42:59


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 Scott-S6 wrote:
kaotkbliss wrote:
That's why with things like tanks, I measure from the center of the model.
No matter how you turn it, the center is still the center and in the same place. So as long as at the end of your move, the new center is 10" or less, you are good.

Nope, in some circumstances you are now cheating because you are moving further than permitted.


Measuring from center or front 10" in a straight line is still 10" as long as you measure center to center or front to front and not front to center or center to front.
If your tank is 6" long then yes, the front will stick out 3" past 10" at the end of the move, but you started at -3" when you measured.

And it's not just moving when I measure from center, it's also shooting so pivoting doesn't add anything because the center is still in the exact same spot. It's the way I learned to do tanks since 2nd


*edit*
If anything, it puts me at the disadvantage since all my measuring is starting at -3" which means for all my opponents measuring for charging or shooting, the hull is 3" closer to him/her.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/13 19:16:09


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Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

So do you require your enemy to have enough movement to reach the middle of your base when they charge you? Measuring to/from the middle of the base does not work.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

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Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord






I'm not sure I'm following the complaint. The rules state that no part of any model may move more than its Movement value (meaning if you pivot and a portion of your vehicle is moving additional distance this is an illegal move). It is difficult to calculate perhaps.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 Ghaz wrote:
So do you require your enemy to have enough movement to reach the middle of your base when they charge you? Measuring to/from the middle of the base does not work.


As I added in my edit, my opponent would most likely be measuring to my hull and not center. So I am voluntarily putting myself at a disadvantage. It's the way I learned to measure models like tanks and the way the old group would play. It doesn't bother me that I'm handicapping myself this way either.

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Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Maryland, USA

pismakron wrote:

Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels.


And Sigg'd.

M.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





We had a good, long talk about this last edition.

HIWPI, as I did last edition (after being corrected) - no part of the model may be more than X" away from where any part of the model was.

My Serpents can get quite a bit of an advantage if you just rotate freely than measure from any given point. They're quite long.

How I originally read it made it virtually impossible to reorientate a Land Raider or Ark if you moved at all (no part could move more than X" from where that part started).

This may need to be one of those "What if you tie twice on the initial rolloff" situations. We have ways to make it work. But certain technical readings of the rules break the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(My Exodite Wraithlord has the same problem - moving straight ahead, he moves less than 2" a turn, if he doesn't advance. It works though. Really feels like a Wraithlord should.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/13 19:52:28


 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Galas wrote:
This is why all my vehicles are in bases... (I know you are suppose to measure from the hull, but we house rule to measure from the base. It works for AoS, it works for 40k)


If bases aren't oval or something(resulting in same issue) but instead are pure circles then we would run into situation where tanks would find lots of places where you can't even PLACE the tank due to base being wider than available space between scenery Not convenient solutiion here. Plus generally larger foot space it takes thus forcing even bigger table or less room to manouver.

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Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





Silver Spring, MD

kaotkbliss wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
kaotkbliss wrote:
That's why with things like tanks, I measure from the center of the model.
No matter how you turn it, the center is still the center and in the same place. So as long as at the end of your move, the new center is 10" or less, you are good.

Nope, in some circumstances you are now cheating because you are moving further than permitted.


Measuring from center or front 10" in a straight line is still 10" as long as you measure center to center or front to front and not front to center or center to front.
If your tank is 6" long then yes, the front will stick out 3" past 10" at the end of the move, but you started at -3" when you measured.

And it's not just moving when I measure from center, it's also shooting so pivoting doesn't add anything because the center is still in the exact same spot. It's the way I learned to do tanks since 2nd


*edit*
If anything, it puts me at the disadvantage since all my measuring is starting at -3" which means for all my opponents measuring for charging or shooting, the hull is 3" closer to him/her.


Do you deploy infantry from transports measuring from the center as well? And measure from the center when determining if you're in close combat range? And when measuring to see if you're holding an objective?

If so, you're weird but I suppose it works - you pretend the model doesn't exist and it's a single point in space. I don't know how you can be in base to base with the center of a Land Raider when there are several inches of model in the way though.

Otherwise, it's like you completely missed the point of the graphic above. You're 100% gaining an advantage of several inches every time you pivot and move.

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Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Always measure point to point.

Even with a base you need to be careful of this, because line of sight is based on the model, not the base.

People can really exploit the way targeting works for models with bases.

 Galas wrote:
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Bharring wrote:
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Made in us
Dakka Veteran




People don't understand that pivoting costs movement - so I'm glad you brought it up.

I had an opponent bring a line of Dark Eldar Raiders; he set them up with the length of the hull running the length of the deployment line (aka broadside positioning); and then proceeded to pivot on his first turn, and move the model from the tip of the ramming spear (which is fine), and measured as though the vehicle hadn't moved any distance (so, full movement, pivoting was "free"; which is not fine).

I might have missed it, but afaik; pivoting isn't free this edition. If a part that you can measure to/from on the model (hull, tip, etc) moves, you have to account for that distance.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/13 20:36:28


 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

Pivoting wasn't free in 7th edition either.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

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Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 greatbigtree wrote:

I would suspect that the simplest thing to do would be to measure your 10" before pivoting, and then move the front of the model to that point. For example, if you were to "turn" 90 Degrees, Just measure from the side of the hull to a point 10" away, then move the nose of the vehicle to that point.
1) Yes. That's why I use 90 degrees as an example, it's the most extreme.

2) Yes, that is exactly how you should do it, but lots of people still use the old method when it's actually wrong.

but isn't that still technically wrong? If you measure from eg. the sponson of a LR to a point 10 inches away from it (so the sponson is the thing closest to that point right now), then turn the model in any way , move it so that a different point of the model touches that point, you've just moved a part of the model more than 10 inches, haven't you?
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





In casual games for careful measurement, I first measure to where I want to go from the closest point on the model, *then* pivot it and move it, such that nothing moves past that point.

May not be exactly technically correct, but it is effectively fair.

That's assuming it's not maneuvering around things. That gets more complicated.
   
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Falls Church, VA

Bharring wrote:
In casual games for careful measurement, I first measure to where I want to go from the closest point on the model, *then* pivot it and move it, such that nothing moves past that point.

May not be exactly technically correct, but it is effectively fair.

That's assuming it's not maneuvering around things. That gets more complicated.


This works - just measure from the closest point on the model to where you want to go, then move and pivot without moving the tape measure. I think that works.

Usually when moving around something I just do it in several smaller moves (e.g. with a 20" move something I'd do like an 8" move then a 10" move then a 2" move" if I wanted to go around something).

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

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Fixture of Dakka





I play with some Ork and Nid players who do similar with hordes. Measure the outline of where they want the unit, move the forward-most ones (or most-tactically-relevant positions), then fill in the back to look good.

Wouldn't cut it in a tourny, sure. But it's fast and sometimes lets you make them look more scenic.

Plus, when people move 2", then 3", etc, their gamer inch becomes two or three or four...
   
Made in gb
Imperial Admiral






kaotkbliss wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
kaotkbliss wrote:
That's why with things like tanks, I measure from the center of the model.
No matter how you turn it, the center is still the center and in the same place. So as long as at the end of your move, the new center is 10" or less, you are good.

Nope, in some circumstances you are now cheating because you are moving further than permitted.


Measuring from center or front 10" in a straight line is still 10" as long as you measure center to center or front to front and not front to center or center to front.
If your tank is 6" long then yes, the front will stick out 3" past 10" at the end of the move, but you started at -3" when you measured.

And it's not just moving when I measure from center, it's also shooting so pivoting doesn't add anything because the center is still in the exact same spot. It's the way I learned to do tanks since 2nd


*edit*
If anything, it puts me at the disadvantage since all my measuring is starting at -3" which means for all my opponents measuring for charging or shooting, the hull is 3" closer to him/her.

That doesn't work if you rotate the tank. If the tank starts 90 degrees from the direction of moving and ends point in the direction of movement then you go from -1" to +3" from center. i.e. more than your movement.
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Scott-S6 wrote:
kaotkbliss wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
kaotkbliss wrote:
That's why with things like tanks, I measure from the center of the model.
No matter how you turn it, the center is still the center and in the same place. So as long as at the end of your move, the new center is 10" or less, you are good.

Nope, in some circumstances you are now cheating because you are moving further than permitted.


Measuring from center or front 10" in a straight line is still 10" as long as you measure center to center or front to front and not front to center or center to front.
If your tank is 6" long then yes, the front will stick out 3" past 10" at the end of the move, but you started at -3" when you measured.

And it's not just moving when I measure from center, it's also shooting so pivoting doesn't add anything because the center is still in the exact same spot. It's the way I learned to do tanks since 2nd


*edit*
If anything, it puts me at the disadvantage since all my measuring is starting at -3" which means for all my opponents measuring for charging or shooting, the hull is 3" closer to him/her.

That doesn't work if you rotate the tank. If the tank starts 90 degrees from the direction of moving and ends point in the direction of movement then you go from -1" to +3" from center. i.e. more than your movement.


Except he measures everything from center including shooting so he doesn't say gain range from this to his guns. Conversely enemy will still be measuring to hull so unless you WANT enemy to have you in range(but not you neccessarily) that's just disadvantage.

Not sure why go that far and weird mix of systems. Why not do it like in 7th ed? Measure from point that moves furthest from starting point to end position. Easy to do, solves issue completely, follows rules.

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tneva82 wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
kaotkbliss wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
kaotkbliss wrote:
That's why with things like tanks, I measure from the center of the model.
No matter how you turn it, the center is still the center and in the same place. So as long as at the end of your move, the new center is 10" or less, you are good.

Nope, in some circumstances you are now cheating because you are moving further than permitted.


Measuring from center or front 10" in a straight line is still 10" as long as you measure center to center or front to front and not front to center or center to front.
If your tank is 6" long then yes, the front will stick out 3" past 10" at the end of the move, but you started at -3" when you measured.

And it's not just moving when I measure from center, it's also shooting so pivoting doesn't add anything because the center is still in the exact same spot. It's the way I learned to do tanks since 2nd


*edit*
If anything, it puts me at the disadvantage since all my measuring is starting at -3" which means for all my opponents measuring for charging or shooting, the hull is 3" closer to him/her.

That doesn't work if you rotate the tank. If the tank starts 90 degrees from the direction of moving and ends point in the direction of movement then you go from -1" to +3" from center. i.e. more than your movement.


Except he measures everything from center including shooting so he doesn't say gain range from this to his guns. Conversely enemy will still be measuring to hull so unless you WANT enemy to have you in range(but not you neccessarily) that's just disadvantage.

Not sure why go that far and weird mix of systems. Why not do it like in 7th ed? Measure from point that moves furthest from starting point to end position. Easy to do, solves issue completely, follows rules.

And how do you measure to the center for assaulting? Or disembarking? or a bunch of other things. It simply doesn't work.
   
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I haven't yet, but if I were to attempt to charge a unit with a tank I would roll for charge, measure from the center of the tank to the target's front line. If I make it, move the tank to the target's front line. If not, follow the failed charge rules. (In essence, increasing my need to charge distance by 3". Again, disadvantage for me but I'm not all hung up on it.)

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Been Around the Block




Unless there is a gap which you must pivot to fit through there is no requirement to do so in your example. It may seem weird but the LR can keep its' facing and slide sideways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Is it worse than that? RAW no part of the hull may move further than the vehicles move stat so you should measure 10" from the bottom right corner of the rectangle to the right edge of the red band for legal move distance?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/14 02:38:26


 
   
 
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