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Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





Indianapolis, IN

Coming off of Warzone Atlanta, we know have had another event were a illegal list was in the top tier of tables. I for one understand that mistakes happen, but I think this is starting to get out of hand a bit. These are the suggestions I've got from some of my local players:

Decrease points from 2k to 1750pts. Less points means less likely to make a mistake.

Top Tier list review: before the final round, the top 8 player's list are reviewed again before the final round starts. Starting with the top table. This is actually something that MTG does for their events. Yes, list get reviewed before the tournament, but list get changed or you get list turned in the day of the tournament. I hate to say this, but you can get a player that changed their list and did not submit the change to the TO/Judge before the event. This would be something that I think ITC should require for GT's or higher events.

Extending the cut off window. The normal practice has been 2 weeks before an event, no new rules material would be allowed. I'm thinking that this needs to be changed to 1 month (4 weeks) before an event. This gives more time for players to get familiar with their rules, work out any bugs that may be in lists, and become familiar with rules of other armies. Most important, being familiar with your own rules.


Thoughts?

Armies:
The Iron Waagh: 10,000+ 8th Edition Tournament Record: 4-7-1
Salamanders: 5,000 8th Edition Tournament Record: 4-2
Ultramarines: 4,000
Armored Battle Company (DKoK): 4000
Elysians: 500
Khorne Daemons: 2500
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Glitcha wrote:
Coming off of Warzone Atlanta, we know have had another event were a illegal list was in the top tier of tables. I for one understand that mistakes happen, but I think this is starting to get out of hand a bit. These are the suggestions I've got from some of my local players:

Decrease points from 2k to 1750pts. Less points means less likely to make a mistake.

Top Tier list review: before the final round, the top 8 player's list are reviewed again before the final round starts. Starting with the top table. This is actually something that MTG does for their events. Yes, list get reviewed before the tournament, but list get changed or you get list turned in the day of the tournament. I hate to say this, but you can get a player that changed their list and did not submit the change to the TO/Judge before the event. This would be something that I think ITC should require for GT's or higher events.

Extending the cut off window. The normal practice has been 2 weeks before an event, no new rules material would be allowed. I'm thinking that this needs to be changed to 1 month (4 weeks) before an event. This gives more time for players to get familiar with their rules, work out any bugs that may be in lists, and become familiar with rules of other armies. Most important, being familiar with your own rules.


Thoughts?


Mixed feelings. I think the easiest and likely most important to perform is a top list review going into Round "X" where there are either 8 or 16 players remaining in the running for generalship.

I think the caveat is tournaments - in an ideal world - should be about providing a fair, impartial field for people to enjoy the game with new opponents in a fashion that suits them. Checking the top lists achieves this for the very small % of tournament attendees who are there to win it all as a primary directive. Forcing list submission cutoffs (when people end up changing their lists anyway and begging for mercy on-site, giving TOs little recourse after people have spent sometimes-thousands of dollars to prepare for and attend their events) is impractical outside of relatively small events. Reducing points will achieve nothing short of making it even harder to run anything other than optimal and spammy lists.

Long and short, check the top 8 or 16; be a little more relaxed and do your best to get it right across the rest of the field - most of the folks there neither care about the top guy having a relic in the wrong spot, nor want to be overly infringed-upon due to that person.
   
Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





Indianapolis, IN

I agree with you, MVBrandt. I doing a list check going to in to the final round or even semi-final round would be effective enough that the past couple Gt/major list issue could have been caught and corrected.

I was having this conversation with another person earlier today. We were talking about how long list issues like these have been going on in previous editions. Also, its not until we started to use the internet more for list sharing from events that these issue are coming up. Which is not a bad thing. Just some food for thought.

Armies:
The Iron Waagh: 10,000+ 8th Edition Tournament Record: 4-7-1
Salamanders: 5,000 8th Edition Tournament Record: 4-2
Ultramarines: 4,000
Armored Battle Company (DKoK): 4000
Elysians: 500
Khorne Daemons: 2500
 
   
Made in us
War Walker Pilot with Withering Fire




Do you mind if I ask what the list was/what made it illegal? Just curious.
   
Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





Indianapolis, IN

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
Do you mind if I ask what the list was/what made it illegal? Just curious.


PM me and I'll explain.

Armies:
The Iron Waagh: 10,000+ 8th Edition Tournament Record: 4-7-1
Salamanders: 5,000 8th Edition Tournament Record: 4-2
Ultramarines: 4,000
Armored Battle Company (DKoK): 4000
Elysians: 500
Khorne Daemons: 2500
 
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





I can definitely see checking top lists especially for those events that cut to a championship bracket of 8-16 players. For smaller events I would say check the top x players (undefeated in the running) at the end of day 1. So for a 5 round GT check all the players still in the running after round 3.

For single day events I doubt list checking will ever really be a thing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/14 20:18:22


 
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




I feel like only checking at the end is kind of unfair to the prior opponents of anyone with an invalid list since they effectively had an unfair match.

Maybe retroactively reducing points for an invalid list if it's later found to be invalid. Might change the rankings but seems more fair.
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






State of Jefferson

GTs should be ran as follows:
Bare minimum...
- List submission by everyone either in writing or electronically.
- Ongoing List check of the top 8-16 by a TO with their SUBMITTED list.
-Then on top table. In-game list review a second time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I agree Audustum. Totally unfair to defeated opponents. The way to get around that is mandate a single army creater app where everyone knows everyones list and it can be instantly error checked.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/15 05:08:52


 
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





If the next person in line is bumped up To the top x if a list is found to be illegal, then it isn't really unfair unless someone was defeated by multiple bad lists. If you only lost once and only to said bad list there is a good chance you are still near the top.
   
Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





Indianapolis, IN

Audustum wrote:
I feel like only checking at the end is kind of unfair to the prior opponents of anyone with an invalid list since they effectively had an unfair match.

Maybe retroactively reducing points for an invalid list if it's later found to be invalid. Might change the rankings but seems more fair.


Its not only checking at the end or prior to the final round. We are discussing adding a second check to the event. So during registration players would submitted a list. Then during the event there would be a second round of list check prior to start of the final round or semi finals.

I believe at WHW/GW they do a second list check/ model check during round 1 of all players.

Armies:
The Iron Waagh: 10,000+ 8th Edition Tournament Record: 4-7-1
Salamanders: 5,000 8th Edition Tournament Record: 4-2
Ultramarines: 4,000
Armored Battle Company (DKoK): 4000
Elysians: 500
Khorne Daemons: 2500
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




I am a T.O and I just check every list prior to the event.....its time consuming but it resolves any issues.

99% of lists are simple to follow and you can tell in 30 seconds that its legal.

   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




McCragge

It’d be great if list verification became standard protocol.

Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!

Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."

"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."

DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. 
   
Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





Indianapolis, IN

 Primark G wrote:
It’d be great if list verification became standard protocol.


I've not been to a competitive event where my list was not verified/checked. I've ran a couple events where i did not check player's list and that is simply because these are fun, non-itc, charity events.

Armies:
The Iron Waagh: 10,000+ 8th Edition Tournament Record: 4-7-1
Salamanders: 5,000 8th Edition Tournament Record: 4-2
Ultramarines: 4,000
Armored Battle Company (DKoK): 4000
Elysians: 500
Khorne Daemons: 2500
 
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Sneggy wrote:
I am a T.O and I just check every list prior to the event.....its time consuming but it resolves any issues.

99% of lists are simple to follow and you can tell in 30 seconds that its legal.


Some of this depends on the size of event. For smaller local events it is easier to get ahead of time list submission, and easier to check fewer lists. I used to do it when I TO'd but never for events larger than 30 players. For something like the LVO with 400 players, even if we accepted your 30 seconds per list to check (which is 100% false if you are actually ensuring all points are correct, all options are correct, detachments are formed properly) you are looking at 200 minutes of time, or over 3 hours. In reality it is closer to 5 min per list to ensure that they are correct as it is safe to assume that people don't know all the options for all the armies in the game. At which point you are looking at 2000 minutes for 400 players or 33 hours. Which is not really doable unless all lists are in prior to the event, which for events involving travel creates other issues.
   
Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





Indianapolis, IN

I was the head judge for Gencon this year and We had over 60 list turned in before the event. I got two of the other local TO's in Indy to help me check everyone's list. We found couple mistakes here and there, but it took a while to get through everyone's list. Even with all this pre-check, I still had to check a handful of list the day of the event because we had either walk-ups or They did not turn a list early.

Judging by most of everyone's comments so far, a second list check before the final round or semi-final round is acceptable.

Armies:
The Iron Waagh: 10,000+ 8th Edition Tournament Record: 4-7-1
Salamanders: 5,000 8th Edition Tournament Record: 4-2
Ultramarines: 4,000
Armored Battle Company (DKoK): 4000
Elysians: 500
Khorne Daemons: 2500
 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




McCragge

Looks like the winner at WarZone had an illegal army list.

Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!

Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."

"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."

DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. 
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




 doktor_g wrote:
GTs should be ran as follows:
Bare minimum...
- List submission by everyone either in writing or electronically.
- Ongoing List check of the top 8-16 by a TO with their SUBMITTED list.
-Then on top table. In-game list review a second time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I agree Audustum. Totally unfair to defeated opponents. The way to get around that is mandate a single army creater app where everyone knows everyones list and it can be instantly error checked.


I am in agreement with all of this. If tournaments really want to bill themselves as high scale competition, than this should be the minimum standard.

If they want to advertise as a more casual event though than obviously allowances can be made.
   
Made in us
Repentia Mistress




Tacoma, WA, USA

Time to go back to school. Add 15 minutes to the beginning of the Tournament. Now pass your list and your rulebooks to your opponent and he checks your list. If it fails his test, time for some double-checking before the game begins.
   
Made in us
Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh





Norfolk, VA

Let them win and DQ them after their list is found illegal. More public. The "winner" becomes the next highest point achiever or the loser the last table.

The message will stick eventually. Risk reward. These top players know what their doing.

At least its not being ignored anymore. Progress.

   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Byte wrote:
Let them win and DQ them after their list is found illegal. More public. The "winner" becomes the next highest point achiever or the loser the last table.

The message will stick eventually. Risk reward. These top players know what their doing.

At least its not being ignored anymore. Progress.



This assumes illegal lists were on purpose.

“Nothing has a definite nature, so people cannot be purely evil. Even so-called evil people will aspire to follow a moral path when they feel a sense of community.” – Kukai

~12200 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights
 
   
Made in gb
Tunneling Trygon






tneva82 wrote:
 Byte wrote:
Let them win and DQ them after their list is found illegal. More public. The "winner" becomes the next highest point achiever or the loser the last table.

The message will stick eventually. Risk reward. These top players know what their doing.

At least its not being ignored anymore. Progress.



This assumes illegal lists were on purpose.


Not really, just following on from most sports. Commit a foul, play an unregistered player etc - you get penalised. Look at golf as a good example - you get penalty strokes for almost anything - wrong number of clubs, incorrect drop etc. Intent doesn't come into it.

Take an illegal list you get penalised, not ifs no buts; there's no longer any excuses. No need to go overboard unless they are repeat offenders.

"We didn't underestimate them but they were a lot better than we thought."
Sir Bobby Robson 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Audustum wrote:
 doktor_g wrote:
GTs should be ran as follows:
Bare minimum...
- List submission by everyone either in writing or electronically.
- Ongoing List check of the top 8-16 by a TO with their SUBMITTED list.
-Then on top table. In-game list review a second time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I agree Audustum. Totally unfair to defeated opponents. The way to get around that is mandate a single army creater app where everyone knows everyones list and it can be instantly error checked.


I am in agreement with all of this. If tournaments really want to bill themselves as high scale competition, than this should be the minimum standard.

If they want to advertise as a more casual event though than obviously allowances can be made.


I too completely agree that this should be the standard for all top end events (ITC events, GTs, Majors, ETC etc)

I accept that for very large events (100+ people) it’ll be very time consuming to check everyone’s lists prior to the event starting, but, I believe it is necessary for the integrity of the tournament and scene overall.

Yes, lots of things have changed and lots of FAQs have come through, but, in my opinion, it is the player’s responsibility to provide a submitted list to the TOs by the required time and to ensure they themselves have checked it numerous times to ensure it is correct. There are plenty of resources out there to help answer questions on the “grey areas” of list building and rule interpretation. In addition, 8th and the new concept of detachments and list creation has been out for a while now – so excuses due to points calculation and detachment building are pretty thin on the ground and pretty unacceptable. (Harsh? Maybe, but you have to, unfortunately, ask the question – “If you can’t build a list properly, are you sure you’re also playing all the rules correctly as well?”)

On the other side of things, there is also the responsibility of the TO(s). If there is a deadline for list submission, it needs to be enforced. They also then need to ensure they give themselves enough time to check the lists and feedback any errors – again with a strict time frame for the errors to be corrected and the list re-submitted. Failure to submit lists on time and correctly should then incur a penalty to the players score, depending on the seriousness of the offense (i.e failure to submit a list on time for the 1st deadline would incur the biggest penalty) A format similar to what the London GT will be doing sounds interesting.
Taken from the London GT player pack
ARMY LIST SCORE
Players accrue 20 points for Army Lists on the following basis:
• The list was submitted on time, 10 points
• The list was in the correct format, 5 points
• The list was free of errors, 5 points


Personally, I think this is a good idea, but I’d like to instead see a point penalty to a players overall score for list issues, rather than a set of bonus points to be added across the board at the end. Or maybe combine both together? Submit a list on time = 10 points. Don’t = -10 points etc.
Incentivising people to do it correctly is good, but, penalties tend to have a larger, longer lasting, impact.
   
Made in us
Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh





Norfolk, VA

tneva82 wrote:
 Byte wrote:
Let them win and DQ them after their list is found illegal. More public. The "winner" becomes the next highest point achiever or the loser the last table.

The message will stick eventually. Risk reward. These top players know what their doing.

At least its not being ignored anymore. Progress.



This assumes illegal lists were on purpose.


No it doesn't. Ignorance is no excuse. If one doesn't know how to make a legal list. Play on the kiddy table.

I've commented on "Acumen score" a number of times. Having a spare army list. Legal list. Army references available. I was told that would only effect the little guys. The top guys play fast and loose because they are that good. Funny how the illegal lists are coming from the winners.

   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




McCragge

I think there has been at least three major events recently with illegal lists on top tables for the finals.

Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!

Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."

"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."

DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. 
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine






 Byte wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Byte wrote:
Let them win and DQ them after their list is found illegal. More public. The "winner" becomes the next highest point achiever or the loser the last table.

The message will stick eventually. Risk reward. These top players know what their doing.

At least its not being ignored anymore. Progress.



This assumes illegal lists were on purpose.


No it doesn't. Ignorance is no excuse. If one doesn't know how to make a legal list. Play on the kiddy table.

I've commented on "Acumen score" a number of times. Having a spare army list. Legal list. Army references available. I was told that would only effect the little guys. The top guys play fast and loose because they are that good. Funny how the illegal lists are coming from the winners.



The Winners are the only one getting caught. There could be plenty of illegal lists on the lower tables. No one tracks it.

“You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common, They don’t alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit their views.” -- The Doctor 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Falls Church, VA

I think also part of the issue with army lists is that there's so much that can vary from game to game.

IIRC, the difference came down to a single Relic, which cost CP to be taken (meaning it may not be taken every game), and which does not even have to be written on the Army List and was probably only there for convenience.

If he hadn't written the Relic onto the list, and just taken it every game paying the CP beforehand like the game intends, then there would even be no way of knowing if it was wrong ever.

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




Just use PL instead of points (but most matched play restrictions otherwise, such as Stratagems once per turn).

- Quick and easy to check
- Unexpected meta shake-up that is harder to netlist
- Free Heavy Weapon and such deemphasise the spamming of cheep chaff and makes Primarchs/Superheavies slightly less scary


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/30 09:33:47


 
   
Made in us
Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries




Sunny Side Up wrote:
Just use PL instead of points (but most matched play restrictions otherwise, such as Stratagems once per turn).

- Quick and easy to check
- Unexpected meta shake-up that is harder to netlist
- Free Heavy Weapon and such deemphasise the spamming of cheep chaff and makes Primarchs/Superheavies slightly less scary




This is what I'm choosing to do for the Gentlemen's at Adepticon, and the friendly events at Dragon-Fall.

When I ran a few primers, this seemed to fix most of the problems (along with allowing 2 lists- both reviewed ahead of time).
   
Made in us
Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh





Norfolk, VA

fyrblckdragon wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
Just use PL instead of points (but most matched play restrictions otherwise, such as Stratagems once per turn).

- Quick and easy to check
- Unexpected meta shake-up that is harder to netlist
- Free Heavy Weapon and such deemphasise the spamming of cheep chaff and makes Primarchs/Superheavies slightly less scary




This is what I'm choosing to do for the Gentlemen's at Adepticon, and the friendly events at Dragon-Fall.

When I ran a few primers, this seemed to fix most of the problems (along with allowing 2 lists- both reviewed ahead of time).


So straight PL with any available weapon option?
   
Made in us
Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh





Norfolk, VA

So real talk.

TOs- Will/can you include repercussions for players caught cheating (it is what it is ) and/or ignoring the rules?

Can we start seeing it it Tournament Packs?

Delineated specifically.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/03 03:07:21


 
   
 
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