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I've been stomping everyone I play at my FLGS and one tournament so far. I've used as many varieties of lists as I can think of and as a result it's difficult finding opponents. I've already tried taking out the power choices, Vendetta, Baneblades, Artillery, Eversors and Conscripts, but I'm still smashing face. Does anyone have any ideas what units are sub-optimal that I can bring to help close the power gap? I decided on running at least one Deathstrike, I guess Exterminator Russes could qualify, Wyverns and Mortars also count. Anything else would help, we usually use 1500pt lists.

It's definitely not Wyverns and Mortars. Those are part of the OP section of AM.

Use Infantry Squads in Chimera. [Significantly weakens their value]
Use Russes.
Use Scions, sparingly.
Use a Single Brigade as your FOC [avoid having 100 CP, limit access to spam]
Use Evil Mutt tanks. Hellhounds, Banewolves, Devil Dogs.
Use Sentinels of all shapes and sizes.
Use Abhumans.

Avoid any Ld Buffing abilities. [Vulnerable to morale]
Avoid Artillery, or limit to a single unit. Artillery is a power choice. Trust me. [Gives your opponent the ability to avoid LOS]
Avoid Conscripts, or limit to a single unit. [One unit is avoidable, like a single Knight used to be.]
Do not use a Chapter Tactic. Er. Regimental Doctrine. [Free bonuses to already good units? blech]
Do not Double Tap Russes.


Hardmode Options:

Give your opponents 10, 15, or 20% more points. You play 1500, they play 1650, or more.
Limit your attacks to 24" or less.
Give your opponent 1 [or more] free CP each turn.
Give your opponent 1 [or more] objectives to place wherever they want, in addition to the normal objectives.

Hardmode options are good, in my opinion, because you can still play to win with an optimized list... your mission just gets harder. You can play an optimized 1500 IG list against 1800 points of someone else, and play your hardest, and that should be a fun game for both players. It's really the easiest thing to do. Just don't sound condescending about it. Acknowledge you've got a top tier codex, and that you want your opponent to have a good chance of winning, and for them to have fun, while you play hard too. I think most people able to field the extra models would have fun with it. You can figure out your handicap, and play at that points disadvantage to make games closer. Winning too much? Harder handicap. Losing most of the time? Claw back some points.

1) Play with a proper amount of Los blocking terrain

2) Play missions that score on every round

3) Play Chimera guard. Use sentinels, Ogryn and Hellhound

4) Go for the assault.

1) Play Highlander - only 1 of every unit type *and that includes troops*

2) Take tricked out _Valkyries_

3) Grenade Launchers Are Your Friend

4) Sniper Rifles Too In Most Cases

5) Play 'modern' guard; that is don't use anything that doesn't exist in a modern army, or has a direct parallel; and that includes lasguns. You'd have to take veterans with autoguns,

Can't take

Sentinels
Plasma
Melta
Las

6) Play Geneva Convention Guard

No Flechette Weapons ( Wyvern)
No Incendiaries ( Flamers/Melta/Plasma)
No nuclear weapons (Deathstrike, Eradicator)
No Cluster Weapons (Manticore)
No targeting Medical Personal (can't shoot units with medics, may only assault - "capture" - them)

I usually just take a points handicap if I'm concerned about balance. I've found about 20-25% is a good handicap if you're up against an index army. Against codex you really don't need to do that much, mayyyyyyybbeee against Grey Knights, but even that's pushing it. Realistically codexes should have tools to beat you if you're intentionally not going all out.


I mean you could always try a dumb idea that you've wanted to attempt but never had a chance to. An all vets force, or a force designed to get into melee would be fun, not be entirely gimped, yet take far more effort to make work. Might be an option for you. That or you can try and make mechvets work again. Most are of the opinion mechanized infantry aren't so great right now.

Thanks for all the replies.

How can Mortars be considered good? I run 3 Cadian squads of them in my weak army with a CC who can give 3 orders from WL Trait and an extra order on 4+ They don't do a thing except waste my time against any 3+ save in cover. Wyverns are the same, cheap, but garbage. The only way they might be good is if there were Xenos Troops out in the open (Not in my area).

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-I've done a full army of 6 Vets in Chimeras rolling up with 2 Hellhounds, and 4 DS Scion/Command Squads wrecks my opponents. If I use Infantry Squads I'll have a lot more CPs, which is pretty good, so maybe not.

-Hellhounds are great AA and work wonders on the ground clearing things off objectives, too good. Devil Dogs are good now with Assault D3, a pair brings tears, too good. Banewolf might be garbage enough to take... hmm.

-Single Brigade is a good idea.

-I've used Executioners, Battlecannon, and Punisher Russes. They all perform well, too good. Which is the worst variant? I'm about to try Demolishers with 3 HFs, very expensive.

-For Scions I usually use 1-2 10man units with 4HSVGs and they perform well so they're in the not take category. I've found Melta Command squads with orders is too good, I don't take.

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-lots of good ideas, Thanks.

-Deathstrike is garbage tho.

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-I always build my own board and there's lots of LOS Terrain, 60% of the pieces I use block some or all sight. The best is a pair of impassible Bastions in the middle of the table about 8" apart.

The whole "block line of sight" advice is a bit outdated these days. IG are the kings of indirect fire, if anything it gives us an advantage. Unless you use 0 indirect fire units, it mainly just gives you an advantage these days. And even if you don't, I've found that the terrain can help you as much as hurt you. Infantry have a very short to midrange firebase. Having terrain forces the enemy to close into a more optimal range, and for how cheap heavy weapons are it's not a big deal if we're not using them turn one. For tanks, it lets you potentially hide them from a turn 1 alpha strike then move out on your turn, etc. As long as you're not being a brain dead gunline player the terrain will help you just as much as your opponent with proper play.

Part of what makes mortars OP is just the fact that they're so stupidly cheap combined with indirect fire. Thanks to how the rules work you cannot hide from them. Add in the weight of fire they can achieve and they are excellent at picking off units trying to hide from a turn one firing line. It's what, 27pts for 3 of them? You'd be crazy not to bring them. Combined with orders they're a no brainer for most setups. They only need to kill maybe 2 space marines in a game to make their points back, and at the very least they're annoying for the opponent to deal with.

As for the rest of the advice, if you're smashing people with stuff like a mechvet list I don't know what to tell you. The stormtroopers are definitely helping with that though, if you're finding even subobtimal lists are crushing people I'd say drop the stormtroopers entirely. It sucks I know, I hate leaving mine at home too, but some people just dont know how to counter them, or in more elite armies cases, lack the tools to do so. This is where a lot of issues come in for most players I've noticed. Many newer players cut their teeth fighting space marines and other more elite forces, so they stock up on plasma, meltas, stuff like that. In my area I'm often one of the only horde players at all so new players especially would be caught completely flat footed. They've gone from their plasma and melta being MVP's to expensive handicaps, and if they're up against a player who not only knows how to run a horde but knows how to dismantle the army he's up against, it's gonna be rough.

What are you typically up against? Maybe that'll tell us a bit more of what you're dealing with. I hate to tell you, but you may want to just take a straight up points handicap, or insist on playing scenarios where you get less points in an asymmetrical mission like a last stand or a breakout. When IG units were at peak strength, I usually did handicaps, insisted on asymmetrical matchups, or just brought things I normally didn't get to bring, like Grenade Launchers. Certain armies just have a straight up hard time with Guard too, and there's not much you can do there other than give them advice on things to bring to deal with your army.

Imagine playing against your own army. Then the mortars would absolutely wreck your infantry screens, and in the absence of those you would be very vulnerable to plasma deepstrike. That's why Guard are strong.

How would you beat yourself using your opponents armies?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think mortars are 33 points for three. But yes, they are extremely punishing against light infantry.

Mortars are good *for their points*. They don't do much, but they cost next to nothing. They "earn their points back" nearly every round of firing. Wyverns are excellent for taking out vehicles, believe it or not. T 7 or less.

If you're using LOTS of LOS blocking terrain, anything with indirect fire becomes immensely powerful.

Scion units are fragile. Glass cannons, dropped down close to your target. Your opponent can deal with that.

Russes are good, but not broken. Use 3 or less. Your opponent should be able to deal with them.


Honestly, play at a points disadvantage. Sometimes a person thinks they're playing a weak army, because it doesn't suit their play style, while being quite powerful. At a points disadvantage, you can take anything you like. just keep increasing the disadvantage until you have a fair game.

Or do an army swap. You may not understand fully the strengths of your army, but they become apparent when you try to use your opponent's army. They may not understand the fundamental weakness of their army. If they're playing full-on assault, with no way to deal with your Russes at range, they're going to lose no matter what crap you take. Let them know their weakness after playing their army.

You could use Catachan and try for a melee army.

Oh, and take Multilasers wherever possible.


If you still win, I think you can safely assume that the fault doesn't lie with your army.