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Made in us
Walking Dead Wraithlord





Dallas area, TX

Gone are the days of Scatter laser spam. And good riddance, I say.
However, now the humble Scat laser is pretty much worthless. The Shuriken cannon can basically do the same anti-horde work with the added versatility of being decent against heavier targets too.

So I am proposing a very simple change. Instead of S6 with 4 Shots, why not make it S5 with 6 shots. It becomes slightly worse at wounding T5/6 & T3 targets, but the extra shots make it an appealing anti-horde gun
It basically becomes a Twin Heavy Bolter without the AP -1.

Any thoughts?

EDIT: another option I thought about is to leave it S6, but make it D3 auto-hits. I know one of the original versions of the Scatter laser was D6 shots, so the idea of making it have variable shots is something GW has already played with

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/11/21 21:39:52


   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Honestly I think Upping its str to 8 or 9 might actually be the best solution. It would still have 0 AP and do 1 damage. Wounding tough things on 3's though - that would make it appealing.

I know it sounds crazy but str isn't what it used to be. It used to be linked to ID - now it's not. Plus it used to mean wounding on 2's - now high str usually means wounding on 3's.

I'm tired of random shots at this point. I like your idea to make scatter lasers random shots again but there are just too many dice being rolled in this edition. I'm all for less dice rolls.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/21 21:56:49


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Walking Dead Wraithlord





Dallas area, TX

I get what you are saying. I'd just prefer them to have lots of shots considering it is a rapid firing laser.

...wait a minute...RAPID FIRE!

What if the stat line stayed S6, 36" but was Rapid Fire 3
That way it wouldn't suffer -1 to hit for moving, could advance and fire and would have 6 shots at 18"

hmmm

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/28 22:20:54


   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




I actually like the S8 idea simply because of the damage mechanic that exists now.

I wouldn't mind an extra couple of shots though.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I actually like the S8 idea simply because of the damage mechanic that exists now.

I wouldn't mind an extra couple of shots though.


I think that would present an interesting mechanical niche, but would it feel right for the weapon? The low damage would make it a reliable way to hurt vehicles and monsters but a bad way to actually kill them. You'd be able to toss wounds on meqs left and right, but you'd only kill about 1 meq per scatter laser. I guess the real question is is the high strength 1 damage, high volume of fire niche a useful one? At strength 8, you'd have a good shot at taking a wound off a rhino, but 1 wound isn't much progress. Against hordes, you'd just be getting a +1 to your wound rolls against T4 baddies. Against MEQs, you wouldn't really be changing your performance much.

So when would you take such a weapon? If you want antitank/anti monster, you'd be better off with a lance or missile launcher. If you want to clear swarms, you'd be roughly as well off with a shuriken cannon (same as now, basically). I guess you'd be just slightly better at hurting expensive T4 stuff like tyranid warriors, I don't really feel like I need a weapon specifically for that.

Personally, I like the idea of starcannons being our armor-ignoring mid-strength decent damage gun, scatter lasers being our crowd clearers, and shuriken cannons being a flexible middle ground . So with that in mind, I think something closer to the rapid fire or strength 5 suggestions would be the way to go. Something that will be more effective than a shuriken cannon against hordes but noticably less effective against vehicles.

Rapidfire 3(ish) at Strength 5 and AP - seems like it might work. The shuriken and star cannons are better against light vehicles, but you'll sort of kind of balance out against anything T7 or above (with star cannons having a slight edge). You'll have equal or double the shots against hordes compared to shuriken cannons, albeit wounding geqs on 3s instead of 2s.

So at 18", a hypothetical scatter laser at s5 with rapidfire 3 on a BS3+ platform would do...
6 shots - > 4 hits -> ~2.68 wounds to a T4 or less unit
3 shots -> 2 hits -> 1.34 wounds to a T4 unit and ~1.67 wounds to a T3 unit.

Hmm. So that's not a huge difference, but it might be enough. Basically, for every 8ish wounds you put on a guardsman with a scatter laser, you'll only put 5ish wounds on that same guardsman with a shuriken cannon.

Now all that said... *gulp* ... I do feel compelled to bring up a certain 6th edition codex rule that we were all pretty happy to see go when 7th rolled around. Once upon a time, younglings, scatter lasers on a given model were resolved before that model's other weapons. Then, if you hit at least once with the scatter laser, the model's other weapons could reroll failed to-hit rolls. Basically, the scatter laser served as a sort of "tracer round" for your other guns.

At the time, this rule was considered annoying due to how it combo'd with the serpent shield (which was basically a long-ranged multi-shot gun) and with the perceived OP nature of eldar t the time. In this age of 10+ wound rhinos and to-hit penalties for vehicles, I think rational autarchs could make an argument for this rule's return. Something like...

Scatter Laser: X Points Strength: 5 AP - Damage 1 Range 36" Rapid Fire 3.
-Special: When shooting a model wielding a scatter laser in your shooting phase, resolve the scatter laser's shots first. If any of the scatter laser's shots hit, you may reroll failed to-hit rolls of 1 for the model's other weapons that fire on the same target for the rest of the phase.

This would make pulse lasers just a tiny bit more reliable while costing less than a bright lance or missile launcher, would add to the anti-horde dakka of a a wave serpent or vyper without stepping on Biel-Tan'st toes, and... might not do much for war walkers beyond giving them a more horde-centric gun than the shuriken cannon.

I'm not necessarily advocating bringing back this special rule, but it would give the scatter laser a role beyond "more pew pew version of the shuriken cannon."
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






The Scatter Laser has never been potent or strong, it's always been based on number of shots. Simple solution is to bring it back to Heavy 6. Keep Strength 6, with no modifier to saves, and inflicting 1 damage.

It'll still be a bit on the mediocre side, but would better represent the history of thescatter laser.

For the increase in shots, bump the price slightly. I admit the scatter laser is the biggest loser on the Eldar heavy weapons - even worse when it was in the index and more expensive. It's niche has always been "more shots, less power" than other Eldar weapons.

Disclaimer: I think the main issue with the scatter laser is that GW made the stupid decision to mount it on a bike. That's just...gak stupid. It's a heavy weapon. Leave the bikes to the classic Shuriken cannon, a purpose built light machine gun of sorts. They basically nerfed the scatter laser to pieces because it's now a bike option...in effect neutering it for War Walkers, tanks, etc. Maybe they should have a "light scatter laser" or some garbage for bike units.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/22 16:35:53


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Galef wrote:
I get what you are saying. I'd just prefer them to have lots of shots considering it is a rapid firing laser.

...wait a minute...RAPID FIRE!

What if the stat line stayed S6, 36" but was Rapid Fire 3
That was it wouldn't suffer -1 to hit for moving, could advance and fire and would have 6 shots at 18"

hmmm

-

That would be a great solution actually. Kind of like a splinter cannon.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Flower Picking Eldar Youth




Heavy or assault 6 str 5 save 0 d 1
   
Made in ru
Sneaky Striking Scorpion




Moscow

It can be made S7 safely I think to represent glancing vehicles. It would look like more long ranged Tesla Destructor, but Heavy instead of Assault and no extra hits.
   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission



Eastern VA

To me, that's essentially an artifact. It's never been intended as an anti-vehicle gun. Its closest real-world counterpart would be some kind of fast-firing light autocannon or heavy machine gun that can maybe hurt light vehicles, but is mostly meant to chew up infantry (not a perfect parallel, of course, since real HMGs defeat infantry armor and the scatter laser does not, but...)

I vote for Rapid-fire 4, but S5. Keep it Heavy, because if not, its superior range to the shuriken cannon makes it much better in most cases (this is why scatbikes, not cannonbikes, were the nasty thing in 7e, despite the cannon having Bladestorm.) Of course, that makes cannons just better on bikes most of the time, but that's fine - scatbikes are kind of dumb. They make some sense as rapidly-relocatable, but mostly static, anti-horde batteries.

~4500 -- ~4000 -- ~2000 -- ~5000 -- ~5000 -- ~4000 
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator




In My Lab

jade_angel wrote:
To me, that's essentially an artifact. It's never been intended as an anti-vehicle gun. Its closest real-world counterpart would be some kind of fast-firing light autocannon or heavy machine gun that can maybe hurt light vehicles, but is mostly meant to chew up infantry (not a perfect parallel, of course, since real HMGs defeat infantry armor and the scatter laser does not, but...)

I vote for Rapid-fire 4, but S5. Keep it Heavy, because if not, its superior range to the shuriken cannon makes it much better in most cases (this is why scatbikes, not cannonbikes, were the nasty thing in 7e, despite the cannon having Bladestorm.) Of course, that makes cannons just better on bikes most of the time, but that's fine - scatbikes are kind of dumb. They make some sense as rapidly-relocatable, but mostly static, anti-horde batteries.


How would you make it Rapid-Fire and Heavy? Special rule?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
 
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