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Hello,

Recently played a match that was suppose to be 2k each side. I was using wolves and he World Eaters. His army looked surprisingly large for the amount of berzerkers he was playing but ignored it assuming he had counted the points correctly. In my community we tend to have a lot of trust towards each other which I enjoy, and wish it could stay that way.

His list:

1 Chaos lord/murdersword, combi melta
2 Aspiring Champions w/ axes and combi meltas
2 Chaos variant of chaplin w/ combi plasma

5x Berzerker units 3 plasma pistols, 8 chain axes, 1 powerfist (9 man each)
5x Rhinos w/ combi meltas

2x Chaos Decimators w/ Soul burner petards
1x Chaos Helbrute w/ missile launcher and lascannon
2 x3 man Obliterators

My list

Bjorn the Fell hand
Iron Priest

3x 6 man Grey hunter squad w/ plasma and combi plasma on WGBL

3x Razorback w/ SB, Twin AC, Hunter killer missile

3x Ven. Dreadnoughts w/ axe and shield

1x Spartan Landraider tank

Now he tends to play I would say, strong lists. Usually does, so I thought I'd meet him with something I thought was strong enough to contend so we could have a good match. I usually agree with whatever my opponent chooses rules wise an example of this is ITC rules, like the +1 to roll off to see who goes first vs whoever finishes first automatically goes first. Personally, I don't mind either.

Anyway, as the game ensues I do some pretty awesome rolls which I thought were cool as hell, something you might see in a novel. Bjorn withstood the attacks of 6 berzerkers by making 10+ 4 up armor saves and making his feel no pain on the 1 that did go through. My opponent then proceeded to tell me how Bjorn should not have a feel no pain (I forget the name of the rule) and that he should be targetable. He also explains how he's the only character that has that. I normally don't lose my cool, but I lost it for half a second (Because he was doing little complaining remarks up until then) and told him how no other units attack twice like berzerkers. (In honesty, I don't mind that either. I think its amazing that Kharn can attack 12 times, its sick and fluffy imo)

I personally, despite discovering the points difference after (which I hope someone can double check for me as well, I dont have the chaos books), had fun. I thought it was a good chance to test my own player skill. To be fair I thought I did well. I just didn't appreciate his whining little remarks, especially when he still had more than enough units to get the job done on turn 2.

Now I just want to know how you guys would deal with this sort of thing. How can I politely make sure the points are equal, how can I minimize my opponents whining? I think the most frustrating thing is when I make a suggestion and they in turn tell me how I am complaining..but it was just a suggestion.

Looking forward to reading the thoughts of you fellow wargamers

punch up his list in battlescribe and see the points.

Honestly you should have just checked his list ahead of the game (its just a good habit and helps remove confusion during the game).

As for comments on units, he was voicing his opinion on a model he doesn't like. Everyone does it, though not all for the same reasons. Its no big deal.

 KingCorpus wrote:
Now I just want to know how you guys would deal with this sort of thing. How can I politely make sure the points are equal, how can I minimize my opponents whining? I think the most frustrating thing is when I make a suggestion and they in turn tell me how I am complaining..but it was just a suggestion.

Friendly games: Vote with your feet. Deny games unless they provide proof of a properly formed army list in the form of a written or printed list. If your opponent's whining reaches your breaking point, pack up and leave the game. Let them know that your ending the game or refusing to play is predicated on their behavior. Note, that a degree of whining is expected, as games can be emotional affairs. Use discretion.

Tournament play: call for a judge.

Checking on battlescribe and he was over almost 600 points lol...I'm going to do what you suggested though. Smart thing to do.

You're both right in the degree of whining, but sometimes when it's constant and I feel some comments can be misplaced you know? If I have a unit that can attack twice, what gives me the right to complain about 1 model with a feel no pain save?

That stuff doesn't make sense to me.

Off the top of my head that list is BEYOND 2000 points. Like, way beyond.

For unintentional cheating, that depends on what's "unintentional". Keywords are funky for a relic (like what recently happened)? That's alright. It happens. Over by a point? Might be a small mistake on your calculator, paper, or Battlescribe. I forgive ya outside a tournament. Forgot a unit didn't have the particular keyword to gain a particular benefit? Just do a replay, and I can understand as how units benefit from stuff is unlike what we might be used to for several editions.

Over by 10 points or more? I don't think that's on accident.

I've accidentally played 350 points too short before. I only realized a while later and kinda thought it was funny that I got curb stomped so badly.

I've also accidentally taken I would say at least 100 points too many before, and felt like an ass for winning after I realized.

If you don't play very often like I do, sometimes you forget just how big or small some armies can be at certain points levels, but I will say 600ish points is quite substantial.

Also remember, GW changed the way points values are tabulated in the new edition. You have to add the cost of your wargear to the basic model now, which some players who have been out of the game for a while may not know. So, make sure that isn't the issue either.

I had this happen to me once, after recreating my opponent's list prior to the next day, I sat down with him and informed him that his list was 500 points over our agreed value. He claimed he thought we'd agreed to a totally different point value, and was more than happy to show me his mathed out list every time after when we played.

Well,I feel I can be too trusting. I enjoy the game very much that I don't mind playing against cheese, but feel discouraged if someone is cheating.

I'll bring it up to him, im sure he isn't doing it on purpose, I dont take him for that kind of person.

Guy sounds like a total gakker. Vote with your feet and play other people.

Name and shame to your gaming group he'll only stop if people watch him like a hawk.

Cheaters will always cheat if they think there's no consequence to their actions.

Don't bother being indirect bluntly demonstrate this is not accepted and won't be tolerated.

The first time I played my 30k Emperor's Children, I unintentionally played 500 above the limit...

 KingCorpus wrote:

Now I just want to know how you guys would deal with this sort of thing. How can I politely make sure the points are equal, how can I minimize my opponents whining? I think the most frustrating thing is when I make a suggestion and they in turn tell me how I am complaining..but it was just a suggestion.

I always bring multiple copies of my list. I give one to my opponent to keep. it breaks down all of my points and units and upgrades. Completely transparent.

I expect a list in return or no game.

I bring my codex, rule book, and any other resource my army needs. I can't recall my own armies rules by memory. I expect you to do the same or no game.

As for whining, there isn't anything you can do. Treat your opponent with respect, congratulate their wins and commiserate their losses. If they are still whiny a-holes, that's on them. Don't play them if they continue poor behavior.

5 units of bezerkers in rhinos?!??! lol That's not unintentional.

I lost a final table game to someone who had over their point limit, and also misused their warlord trait pretty grossly.

Anyway, it happens.

I've been saying this since I started, but until 40k gives us a formal tournament list building tool, with the ability to share your list with the opponent digitally, as well as a searchable ruleset, this will continue to be a problem.

You can ask to see someone's codex, but hastily reading stratagems while the dice are being rolled, or when there is a time limit and you *NEED* your last turn? I would much rather be able to leisurely read through my opponents stratagems and think on them. Wording is so critical. Does it say "unit" or "model"? easy thing to miss in a lot of powers and stratagems, and the waters get murky with a lot of 1 model units!

 AaronWilson wrote:
Guy sounds like a total gakker. Vote with your feet and play other people.

Unfortunately he's done this in our previous 2 games although not as huge as this game. He had ran 2 chaos decimators with 4 weapon upgrades (Which I can get is a mistake)

The most common response I'm getting is checking his list, and showing him mine. Which makes the most sense, and probably the best way to go about getting a fair game. That way if he says he has an upgrade such as the combi melta, I can say well..I didn't see those points added into your list.

I don't want to have to watch people like a hawk, not sure how others can consider themselves a winner if they cheat. So much false accomplishment. If it comes to that, oh well. I will have my fair match

Show interest in his codex - like, I wonder how many of those I can fit into 1000 points!

Be more inqusitive than inquisitional.

Unless/until it's obvious it wasn't unintentional, anyways.

Another question, not sure if I'm allowed to do this.

If you're an admin of a little local group page, and someone comments passive-aggressive things to get a rise out of you, how do you approach that? My way does not have any sauve to it.

Ex. Smart alek replies, but they're not for fun its in truth to demean you to others.

Getting into passive-aggressive battles with people is never a good way to spend your time. If they can't handle acting like emotionally healthy adults, take note of it. Then you can blow them off if your relationship is not important, and address them directly to talk out your issues if the relationship is something you'd rather not lose. Stooping to their level and wasting your time responding in kind to passive-aggressive remarks is one of the worst things you can do, in my opinion. If they don't matter, show them you don't care and they have no effect on you and they'll get tired of it.

Great advice, my thanks too all you fine Sirs/Ma'ams

No wonder he was pissed... he had a knowing 600 point advantage yet you were still literally rocking his world! Good job mate.

In my opinion there's no such thing as "unintentional cheating". There's cheating, which is intentional, and then there are mistakes and misunderstandings. Calling both instances "cheating" isn't helpful and only serves to vilify those who make honest mistakes. We all make mistakes.

Cheating however, is a violation of the social contract that is the game, and entirely unforgivable. Cheaters will continue to cheat in every game they play, against you and everyone else, if they think they can get away with it.

You shouldn't have to play against people who are devoid of manners, who are disagreeable and spiteful, unless it doesn't prevent you from having fun regardless.