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So can I use the tyranid stratigum to move after I deep strike?

Timeshadow wrote:
So can I use the tyranid stratigum to move after I deep strike?

No, you don't have time to. Deep Strike happens at the end of the phase. There is literally no time between deployment and the phase ending for you to declare the use of the stratagem on the arrived unit.

Then why is there an end of movement phase ... So people can react with stratigums or abilitys like this allowing you to extend the movement phase... The end of a phase is still in that phase.

Timeshadow wrote:
Then why is there an end of movement phase ... So people can react with stratigums or abilitys like this allowing you to extend the movement phase... The end of a phase is still in that phase.

And again its the END of the phase, as in nothing happens afterward. If something did happen aftewards it wouldn't really be the END of the phase, would it? No.

If multiple abilities trigger at the end of the movement phase wouldnt sequencing kick in and the player whos turn it is would determine order of operations? If a strat is used at the end of the movement phase why couldnt it be used on a unit that also arrived?

 Lance845 wrote:
If multiple abilities trigger at the end of the movement phase wouldnt sequencing kick in and the player whos turn it is would determine order of operations? If a strat is used at the end of the movement phase why couldnt it be used on a unit that also arrived?

Because sequencing doesn't change the timing of when things happen, it only changes the order they are resolved.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Timeshadow wrote:
So can I use the tyranid stratigum to move after I deep strike?

No, you don't have time to. Deep Strike happens at the end of the phase. There is literally no time between deployment and the phase ending for you to declare the use of the stratagem on the arrived unit.

Agreed.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
If multiple abilities trigger at the end of the movement phase wouldnt sequencing kick in and the player whos turn it is would determine order of operations? If a strat is used at the end of the movement phase why couldnt it be used on a unit that also arrived?

Because sequencing doesn't change the timing of when things happen, it only changes the order they are resolved.

Yeahbut the end of the movement phase is a singular point in time when all of these things are taking place. Its not like the strat is used at the beginning of the phase and deployment at the end. They both happen at the end.

 Lance845 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
If multiple abilities trigger at the end of the movement phase wouldnt sequencing kick in and the player whos turn it is would determine order of operations? If a strat is used at the end of the movement phase why couldnt it be used on a unit that also arrived?

Because sequencing doesn't change the timing of when things happen, it only changes the order they are resolved.

Yeahbut the end of the movement phase is a singular point in time when all of these things are taking place. Its not like the strat is used at the beginning of the phase and deployment at the end. They both happen at the end.

Interesting point... hope this one gets the week 2 FAQ treatment!

Actually allow me to make a correction. MO is used "after moving a tyranids unit from your army".

"Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes"

Fulfilling the requirement of the stratagem as they arrive and meeting the trigger condition.

So basically RAW we can do it if we pop it the instant they deep strike in.

 Lance845 wrote:
Actually allow me to make a correction. MO is used "after moving a tyranids unit from your army".

"Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes"

Fulfilling the requirement of the stratagem as they arrive and meeting the trigger condition.

I'm convinced!

 Eihnlazer wrote:
So basically RAW we can do it if we pop it the instant they deep strike in.

No, RaW you don't even have the time to pop it, regardless of trigger requirements.

Reinforcements come at the end of the phase. If there is time to use a stratagem AFTER they arrive, then they didn't arrive at the end of the phase, by definition.

Thus, proof by contradiction.

The trigger is a unit that moved. When the arrive by deepstrike they are consider to have moved.

If its as you say (end of the turn) and nothing else can happen after, how do multiple units get to arrive by deep strike?

They obviously aren't placed instantly at the same time but one by one.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
They obviously aren't placed instantly at the same time but one by one.

That is where you are wrong.

They do arrive at the same instant, and the game then tells you how to resolve two actions happening at the same instance via the "Sequencing" rules.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
So basically RAW we can do it if we pop it the instant they deep strike in.

No, RaW you don't even have the time to pop it, regardless of trigger requirements.

Reinforcements come at the end of the phase. If there is time to use a stratagem AFTER they arrive, then they didn't arrive at the end of the phase, by definition.

Thus, proof by contradiction.

Then can you explain how AdMech would use their "Infoslave Skull" stratagem? "Use this Stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up
a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements...". As you claim, you don't even have the time to pop it, regardless of trigger requirements.

JakeSiren wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
So basically RAW we can do it if we pop it the instant they deep strike in.

No, RaW you don't even have the time to pop it, regardless of trigger requirements.

Reinforcements come at the end of the phase. If there is time to use a stratagem AFTER they arrive, then they didn't arrive at the end of the phase, by definition.

Thus, proof by contradiction.

Then can you explain how AdMech would use their "Infoslave Skull" stratagem? "Use this Stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up
a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements...". As you claim, you don't even have the time to pop it, regardless of trigger requirements.

You do realise reinforcements can arrive at other times, right? You might as well say "Why does the game have rules for shooting heavy weapons if you can't do so after you advance!?!?!??"

 BaconCatBug wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
So basically RAW we can do it if we pop it the instant they deep strike in.

No, RaW you don't even have the time to pop it, regardless of trigger requirements.

Reinforcements come at the end of the phase. If there is time to use a stratagem AFTER they arrive, then they didn't arrive at the end of the phase, by definition.

Thus, proof by contradiction.

Then can you explain how AdMech would use their "Infoslave Skull" stratagem? "Use this Stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up
a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements...". As you claim, you don't even have the time to pop it, regardless of trigger requirements.

You do realise reinforcements can arrive at other times, right? You might as well say "Why does the game have rules for shooting heavy weapons if you can't do so after you advance!?!?!??"

Is there any? I haven't specifically looked, but everything I've seen is at the end of the movement phase. But more directly are you suggesting that Admech can't use this stratagem when a drop pod comes in?

You can use intercept stratagems, so you can without any doubt respond to single units arriving in between others arrival.

Well if you claim that you can magically somehow do something after the end of the phase but still in that phase, I would hold you to the long list of RaW idiocy in my signature.

It makes no sense to be able to do something after the end of a phase in that phase.

You aren't doing it after the end of the phase though. Your doing it instantly after the unit hits the table. This occurs at the same moment that any auspex/forwarning strat would take place.

The point is, if you permit the stratagem to be used, then by definition the unit did not arrive at the end of the turn.

Once again though we have to blame this on GW writing and use some common sense.

If some stratagems are allowed to interrupt normal sequencing and timing, shouldn't all be allowed to as long as you meet their requirements?

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Well if you claim that you can magically somehow do something after the end of the phase but still in that phase, I would hold you to the long list of RaW idiocy in my signature.

It makes no sense to be able to do something after the end of a phase in that phase.

I don't think anyone has made that claim that it occurs after the end of the phase. And you still didn't answer either of my questions. I can only assume that as it stands right now that the only rules regarding reinforcements arriving occur at the end of the movement phase. Under you assumption the Infoslave Skull would be impossible to utilise with the current set of rules.

Regardless of what step in the phase you are in, if you meet the conditions and requirements of a stratagem then you can activate it and resolve its text. I think that much should be clear from reading the rules.

Stratagems can, and do, interupt the normal flow and play of the game. There are numerous intercept stratagems that trigger off the arrival of deepstriking units explictly, thus ample proof exists that GW intends for there to be counterplay to deepstrike, not an instant end of turn.

To take MTG as an example, there are numerous 'End of turn' effects that can be reacted to, and the game doesn't break simply because you did something in response and now they magically arn't the 'End of turn' anymore.

in my humble opinion, if it can be done, because there is another stratagem that happens at the end of a phase, but you can do actions, which is:

SINGLE-MINDED ANNIHILATION
Use this Stratagem at the end of your Shooting phase.
Select a TYRANIDS INFANTRY unit from your army – that
unit can immediately shoot again.

as it says there, it happens at the end of the shooting phase, but the unit can shoot again

There is 1 huge difference between the Infoslave Skull and Auspex Scan stratagems and the Metabolic Overdrive Stratagem. The Metabolic Overdrive stratagem includes the condition that it has to happen in the Movement Phase.

Auspex Scan and Infoslave Skull only say that they have to happen when something is arriving as reinforcements, they don't care what phase it is, in theory you could say that they happen in the start of the psychic phase.

Metabolic Overdrive has to happen in the Movement phase after a Tyranids unit has moved. Deep-Strike-like abilities happen at the end of the movement phase and by that definition nothing else can happen IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE after that.

With the exception of other units arriving via deepstrike and strats that happen when something specifically deepstrike correct?


If you read MO directly as it is, it can be used. You meet all the criteria.

Is it still techniqally the movement phase? yes albiet at the end of it. This I know because I can still place other deep strikers on the table.

Did the unit move? yes it counts as having moved

Just going to throw some more gas on this fire...

Counting as having moved, and moving, are two different things. The unit is actually deployed, not moved. Metabolic Overdrive is used after the unit is done moving, but the unit never moved, it only deployed. Still, if ever the game wants to know if it has or has not moved, the rules specifically say "yes".

So we definitly need an errata/FAQ for this it's not just one or the other currently. Until I get one I don't plan to use it this way but it's something I will definitely be looking for in the Tyranid FAQ.