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I’m trying to build up my captain (w/jump pack), but I’m confused with a few game mechanics which will determine what I give him.

1a. Saves. They confuse me. I’m aware these don’t stack or use more than one at once, but is each save a once per battle or once per turn?

1b. Assuming I can only use 1 of each save per battle, the captain would have a;
-cover save (+2???)
-armor save (+3)
-iron halo inv save (+4)
So does the storm shield add an additional inv save to use, and would I need it more often than not? Is it worth the 15 points, with and without shield eternal?

1c. When selecting a chapter relic, the shield eternal’s secondary trait; “any damage they suffer is halved (rounded up). Surely this can’t last the entire battle? Seems strong, although I assume has no effect against recieving 1 damage hits.

2. Does the additional hit from carrying a second melee weapon mean I get 1 extra hit plus the captain’s 4, or would I get 4 hits per melee weapon?

3. The relic blade is two handed, which I’m assuming means I can’t have a relic blade and another melee weapon, but can I still have a Combi-gun for the shooting phase, as well as a storm shield?

1a
You can use a save as many times as an attack wounds you. You just take the best save available.

1b
So a captain with a 3+ and a 4+ invulnerable will take his 3+ if there is no armour penetration. However, if the attack has AP -2, it reduces his armour save to 5+. In that case, he can choose to take his Iron Halo 4+ save instead. As this is an invulnerable save, it is not reduced by armour penetration. If you take a storm shield, this just means you have access to a 3+ invulnerable save, which you may as well always take! You will never take your Iron Halo save in this case. This does reduce the impact of a Storm Shield compared to a model that didn't have an Iron Halo, however I'd still say it's pretty useful especially if you plan to get the captain in to melee against strong opponents.

Cover does not give a save itself in this edition, it adds a bonus modifier to your save roll.

1c
It lasts all battle. It is pretty good! Yes, it has no affect on attacks that do 1 damage. 3 damage becomes 2, 5 becomes 3 and so on.

2
You do not get an extra attack from having an additional melee weapon generally. The only exception is for weapons such as the chainsword which explicitly state they give you an extra attack.

When you make a melee attack, you can choose any melee weapon the model has to use for that attack. If you have a power sword and power fist, you could make all with the sword, all with the fist, or some mixture of the two. An exception again is the chainsword, which says the extra attack it gives you MUST be made with the chainsword.

3
There is no such thing as one and two handed weapons in this game. If the model's datasheet allows you to take a relic blade and another melee weapon then you can.

Re Saves - the best save you can take is used any time you're attacked. It doesn't get "used up" unless specifically mentioned in the rules, so that 3+ invuln save you get from that Storm Shield does indeed last all battle long, no matter how many times you get attacked

Re Relics - unless it specifically states the relic has a limited use, it's always on. That Shield Eternal does indeed halve all damage all battle long, to a minimum of 1

Re Extra Weapons - unless the weapon profile states you get extra hits, you don't. That +1 hit for having a chainsword means you get your 4 attacks with whatever weapon you choose, plus 1 additional one using the chainsword. The attacks on the characters statline are the total attacks you get, not per weapon.

Re Relic Blade - this question (and the previous) has me thinking you're playing an earlier edition of the game. The 8th edition version has no such rule. In previous editions, the two handed rule meant that you didn't get a bonus attack from having more than one melee weapon.

Check your codex out. If it's not this you're using an outdated and no longer functional book

Thanks guys. I’m using the new codex, but I’m asking a lot of questions on google and a lot of forum discussions are outdated. Just checked and I realised the +1 hit confusion I had came from a chainsword.

So now the relic blade is classed as 1 melee weapon, I can carry another OR a gun?

Is the storm shield still classed as non-weapon, so I could have a sword AND a gun AND a shield?

ShaunyP wrote:
Thanks guys. I’m using the new codex, but I’m asking a lot of questions on google and a lot of forum discussions are outdated. Just checked and I realised the +1 hit confusion I had came from a chainsword.

So now the relic blade is classed as 1 melee weapon, I can carry another OR a gun?

Is the storm shield still classed as non-weapon, so I could have a sword AND a gun AND a shield?

As I say, this is determined by the datasheet for the specific model, not by the weapons themselves.

I've opened up my codex, assuming you're talking about the basic Captain:

By default he has a boltgun and chainsword (plus pistol and grenades).
The boltgun can be swapped for a pistol, combi weapon, or melee weapon.
The chainsword can be swapped for a storm shield, relic blade, or melee weapon.

This means this model can take two melee weapons. However, you cannot take a storm shield AND a relic blade, because you can only swap your chainsword once.

EDIT: note that the book here is referring to a specific list of melee weapons, found on page 131 of the codex here. The relic blade does not appear on this list, which is why you cannot swap the boltgun for it

Stux wrote:

ShaunyP wrote:
Thanks guys. I’m using the new codex, but I’m asking a lot of questions on google and a lot of forum discussions are outdated. Just checked and I realised the +1 hit confusion I had came from a chainsword.

So now the relic blade is classed as 1 melee weapon, I can carry another OR a gun?

Is the storm shield still classed as non-weapon, so I could have a sword AND a gun AND a shield?

As I say, this is determined by the datasheet for the specific model, not by the weapons themselves.

I've opened up my codex, assuming you're talking about the basic Captain:

By default he has a boltgun and chainsword (plus pistol and grenades).
The boltgun can be swapped for a pistol, combi weapon, or melee weapon.
The chainsword can be swapped for a storm shield, relic blade, or melee weapon.

This means this model can take two melee weapons. However, you cannot take a storm shield AND a relic blade, because you can only swap your chainsword once.

EDIT: note that the book here is referring to a specific list of melee weapons, found on page 131 of the codex here. The relic blade does not appear on this list, which is why you cannot swap the boltgun for it

Oh I understand now. So a jump pack captain can’t carry both, but a terminator captain can because te storm shield is in the terminator melee list. Seems a little unfair.
I know the codex classifies it as a weapon slot, but I keep seeing all over forums that the shield is just a piece of wargear. It used to stop a 2CCW +1 hit though. Now that doesn’t exist, but I’d still rather have the storm shield and blade rather than a gun and shield. I had a back story for my captain and the thunder hammer just doesn’t fit, I don’t really like the look of it, and to be fair it’s the same price so I don’t get why the relic blade gets the nerf, if there was one. I wanted a SliceyMcDicey character; not a ShootyUrBooty or a SmashNBash. Wanted to jump in, hack and slash, and resist some damage.

The shield is just a piece of wargear, but you still have to swap out a weapon to get it, because that's what the datasheet says.

Yeah, it does seem a little unfair that they can't take both the relic blade and the shield, but that's the rules I'm afraid!

You can take a regular power sword and the shield though, and if you didn't take The Shield Eternal you could instead give the Captain The Burning Blade.

As a reference, this 8th edition post states it is technically possible.
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335562-8th-ed-relic-blade-storm-shield/
By swapping both weapons to a chainsword, I can then swap one for a SS and the other for a relic blade. Seeeems legittt... and a bit fairer in my eyes haha

ShaunyP wrote:
As a reference, this 8th edition post states it is technically possible.
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335562-8th-ed-relic-blade-storm-shield/

I don't believe that reading is the intention of the rules.

It says 'the model may replace its chainsword' which heavily implies from the wording it is referring to the specific chainsword the model starts with.

Also, for what it's worth, Battlescribe does not let you take both either.

You can try arguing it with your group, but I doubt many people would let that fly.

See my edit to my last comment about The Burning Blade for another option though.

Stux wrote:

ShaunyP wrote:
As a reference, this 8th edition post states it is technically possible.
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335562-8th-ed-relic-blade-storm-shield/

I don't believe that reading is the intention of the rules.

It says 'the model may replace its chainsword' which heavily implies from the wording it is referring to the specific chainsword the model starts with.

Also, for what it's worth, Battlescribe does not let you take both either.

You can try arguing it with your group, but I doubt many people would let that fly.

See my edit to my last comment about The Burning Blade for another option though.

The burn blade would take up a chapter relic though, and from what I hear the teeth of Terra is better in almost every way. Hmm. Could I give my captains model an eviscerstor and call it a thunder hammer, or at least the teeth of terror?

Not really, unless your group is super relaxed about these things.

It's generally a no no to use one weapon on a model to represent another, as it can make it really confusing for your opponent.

I wouldn't have a problem with you using an Eviscerator to represent the Teeth (it's just a fancy chainsword anyway!), but probably not a thunder hammer.

Stux wrote:
Not really, unless your group is super relaxed about these things.

It's generally a no no to use one weapon on a model to represent another, as it can make it really confusing for your opponent.

I wouldn't have a problem with you using an Eviscerator to represent the Teeth (it's just a fancy chainsword anyway!), but probably not a thunder hammer.

I may just use the teeth then. Still, seems weird how the terminator and Cataphractii captain can have both, and the veteran sergeant has a workaround. Gonna have to send GW an email or letter; maybe it’s right or maybe it’s an oversight. Hopefully we’ll see.

Stux wrote:

ShaunyP wrote:
As a reference, this 8th edition post states it is technically possible.
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335562-8th-ed-relic-blade-storm-shield/

I don't believe that reading is the intention of the rules.

It says 'the model may replace its chainsword' which heavily implies from the wording it is referring to the specific chainsword the model starts with.

Also, for what it's worth, Battlescribe does not let you take both either.

You can try arguing it with your group, but I doubt many people would let that fly.

See my edit to my last comment about The Burning Blade for another option though.

Last time there was idea of chainswapping wargear like this(7th ed deathwatch to get both bolter w/special ammo and shotgun IIRC) GW FAQ'ed out "nope can't do that. Albeit 7th ed but somewhat comparable. GW being sloppy ruleswriter these issues keeps appearing again and again though. Would be rather crazy way if they wanted model to have both and do it like this!

There was an FAQ which addressed this (but there have been so many I cannot remember which one or where) and GW stated a weapon can only be "swapped" once, and thus you cannot use the silly work-around.

It comes up every edition on Vyper Shuriken Cannons. The consistent answer is no for it, but there have been cases it's allowed.

The specific 'Captain + SS' is one almost nobody minds, but majority seem to agree it's not RAW legal.

I'd avoid it, but if you really love it, I'm sure non-tourny opponents would be OK with it. That said, if it were me and I was building another captain and wanted sword & shield, I'd go with Burning Blade.

If it's your first captain, go with what you love the look of.

Honestly you should probably read the rule book, it will answer every question you have.

Thanks guys. I’ve read the rules and I’ve had another good spy into the codex. Both the terminator and Cataphractii captain can have the SS and RB because even though the rule is written the same, as in relic blade or storm shield etc, the storm shield is in the terminator melee list, and the Bolter can be swapped for any melee weapon. The Cataphractii doesn’t even mention the storm shield, but because it’s in the terminator melee list, he can carry it. Because the standard melee list doesn’t, understandably, have the storm shield, the normal captain misses out.

On the other hand, even the vanguard veteran sergeant gets past this, because his rule states he may “replace his Bolter and chainsword with TWO items from the following list; a storm shield, a relic blade, or an item from the pistol and/or melee weapons list.”

This, as well as the fact GW states in the codex the Bike Captain is capable of a jump assault (in his abilities), I feel as though the normal Captain’s rule is an oversight. There doesn’t seem to be any reason why it shouldn’t be allowed. I’ve sent them an email to GW asking about the rule but no reply as of yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I honestly don’t see the problem with it as long as I pay the points. I still wouldn’t be as strong as a terminator captain. I’ll build the character to look cool. I could try and magnetise them so for players who think the codex is absolute, I could switch it.

So I’ve had a think and I’ve thought it’s pointless me going against the codex cos there’ll always be that one player that worships the book. So therefore, I’m gearing towards either:

Chainsword (Teeth of Terror) + Storm shield,
Chainsword (Teeth of Terror) + Master Crafted Bolter,
Relic Blade + Master Crafted Bolter.

Decisions decisions...

I personally did Power Fist + Primarchs Wrath. Looks okay.

The Teeth of Terra is not bad if you want to mulch troops. I’m questioning relic blades on captain these days though. Why not thunder hammers? The -1 to hit is less of an issue for captains as they will always be re-rolling ones, and the extra S and solid 3 damage more then makes up for it. Cost is the same.

I’ve never been a huge fan of storm shields on captains. Sure, boosting the 4++ to a 3++ is pretty nice, but I’m a miser on wargear, so balk at the price.

Storm Shields are still a good buy, which is actually a great thing now. They're a good buy rather than being automatic.

 Nevelon wrote:
The Teeth of Terra is not bad if you want to mulch troops. I’m questioning relic blades on captain these days though. Why not thunder hammers? The -1 to hit is less of an issue for captains as they will always be re-rolling ones, and the extra S and solid 3 damage more then makes up for it. Cost is the same.

I’ve never been a huge fan of storm shields on captains. Sure, boosting the 4++ to a 3++ is pretty nice, but I’m a miser on wargear, so balk at the price.

Oh so the shield doesn’t add an extra invulnerable save, it just replaces the existing one with a slightly more chancy one? Might just go with the master crafted Boltgun then, as under 12”, rapid fire gets double the shots right? So rapid fire 2 will get me 4 shots after a jump assault, then I could charge and get potentially 7 hits with the teeth.

Sounds like a bit of a waste now, especially if I use the teeth of terra so I won’t benefit from the shield eternal’s half damage.

Optimally, the teeth of terra can deliver the most wounds and kills, and the relic blade falls behind. The thunder hammer the middle ground. I did some calculations of chance of wounds, hits and armor saves. The hammer can deliver a lot of wounds, but a lot will be wasted on units with 1 wound to kill. The relic can get in a similar amount of wounds because it’s hit chance is better, but wounding chance is lower. Teeth of Terra is the middle ground with stronger enemies, but does substantially better than either when put up against hordes of weak strength characters.

Best of all, the teeth of terra is free because it replaces a chainsword. That’s a good 21 points to put elsewhere.

Gearing captains is a lot about what you want to do with them. Get the right tool for the right job.

Teeth of Terra is going to be great for plowing through light troops.You get extra swings, hit with pretty much all of them, wound anything MEQ or less on a 3+, and carve a bit off their armor saves. While “free” it does eat up your relic for your army. If you want anything else, you’d have to pony up the CPs for them.

The relic blade is also going to hit with almost every swing, but you get less then the ToT. The fact that is has a point of strength over the Teeth lets you more reliably wound heavier targets, like bikes and other mid-T things. -3 to the armor save will reduce most saves to the unlikely to make level, if not negate them. d3 wounds can be erratic, but is nice to have. It’s historically, and continues to be, a jack-of-all trades option, that kinda does OK at everything, while not excelling ant anything in particular.

Thunder Hammer is going to miss more, that is true. But between re-rolling 1s, and the -1 to hit, you should still be landing enough hits to get the job done. Someone more mathammer inclined could get you the exact numbers. The fact that it hits at strength 8 is a big deal. You wound anything that looks like a normal person on a 2+, and anything but the heaviest tanks on a 3+. And with a solid 3 wounds a hit, they are going to go down fast.

My issue with the relic blade is not with it’s performance, but it’s price. It costs the same as the TH. But in the hands of the captain, the TH’s drawback is almost negligible. So why not go for the extra S and solid damage? In the hands of someone without the re-roll, I could see more of an argument. But I think the only other person who has access to both is the vanguard vet sarge. And they pay less for the TH.

You are correct on how rapid fire works, but the MC bolter the captain can take is only rapid fire 1, so gets 2 shots at half range.

The -1 is actually more significant than you'd think.

ShaunyP wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
The Teeth of Terra is not bad if you want to mulch troops. I’m questioning relic blades on captain these days though. Why not thunder hammers? The -1 to hit is less of an issue for captains as they will always be re-rolling ones, and the extra S and solid 3 damage more then makes up for it. Cost is the same.

I’ve never been a huge fan of storm shields on captains. Sure, boosting the 4++ to a 3++ is pretty nice, but I’m a miser on wargear, so balk at the price.

Oh so the shield doesn’t add an extra invulnerable save, it just replaces the existing one with a slightly more chancy one? Might just go with the master crafted Boltgun then, as under 12”, rapid fire gets double the shots right? So rapid fire 2 will get me 4 shots after a jump assault, then I could charge and get potentially 7 hits with the teeth.

Sounds like a bit of a waste now, especially if I use the teeth of terra so I won’t benefit from the shield eternal’s half damage.

Optimally, the teeth of terra can deliver the most wounds and kills, and the relic blade falls behind. The thunder hammer the middle ground. I did some calculations of chance of wounds, hits and armor saves. The hammer can deliver a lot of wounds, but a lot will be wasted on units with 1 wound to kill. The relic can get in a similar amount of wounds because it’s hit chance is better, but wounding chance is lower. Teeth of Terra is the middle ground with stronger enemies, but does substantially better than either when put up against hordes of weak strength characters.

Best of all, the teeth of terra is free because it replaces a chainsword. That’s a good 21 points to put elsewhere.

Technically the Storm Shield does give you another invulnerable save, it's just you can only take one of them on any given wound. Sounds pedantic, but it's important to understanding in general how saves work in this edition.

In practical terms, taking the shield means that for every 3 times you would have failed the save without it, you now pass one of those. So effectively it's the same as if you had 50% more wounds (assuming these are hits that negate your 3+ from power armour).

You also mention charging the turn you jump. Remember you will need to roll a 9+ on the charge roll. It is a 9 and not an 8 as some people think. This is because if moving 8" got you within 1" of the enemy, you must logically have been within 9" to start with, which would have been an illegal deployment. You may know that already, just making sure!

The chances of succeeding a 9+ on 2d6 is 27.8%, so I wouldn't bank everything on regularly pulling it off.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The -1 is actually more significant than you'd think.

OK, I keep forgetting the re-roll/mod thing works a little flaky. You are correct.

Warning, amateur mathammer ahead:

Most weapons in a captain’s hands are hitting on a 2+, re-rolling 1s. So the only time you are going to miss is if you roll a 1, followed by another one. So hitting 35/36 of the time.

The TH has a -1 to hit.

So if you roll a 1 on the first die, and follow it up with a 1 or 2, you miss. a 3+ on the second die hits.
Any roll of a 2 on the first roll is a miss, as you don’t get to re-roll them. (note: chapter masters with full re-rolls are better then captains here)
3+ hits normally.

So you hit with the TH 28/36 times, or 78%. Which is worse then I guessed, but I’ll still take it over the relic blade. While the impact of the S is very target dependent, as is the 3 D, I feel they will compensate for the increased misses.

Stux wrote:

ShaunyP wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
The Teeth of Terra is not bad if you want to mulch troops. I’m questioning relic blades on captain these days though. Why not thunder hammers? The -1 to hit is less of an issue for captains as they will always be re-rolling ones, and the extra S and solid 3 damage more then makes up for it. Cost is the same.

I’ve never been a huge fan of storm shields on captains. Sure, boosting the 4++ to a 3++ is pretty nice, but I’m a miser on wargear, so balk at the price.

Oh so the shield doesn’t add an extra invulnerable save, it just replaces the existing one with a slightly more chancy one? Might just go with the master crafted Boltgun then, as under 12”, rapid fire gets double the shots right? So rapid fire 2 will get me 4 shots after a jump assault, then I could charge and get potentially 7 hits with the teeth.

Sounds like a bit of a waste now, especially if I use the teeth of terra so I won’t benefit from the shield eternal’s half damage.

Optimally, the teeth of terra can deliver the most wounds and kills, and the relic blade falls behind. The thunder hammer the middle ground. I did some calculations of chance of wounds, hits and armor saves. The hammer can deliver a lot of wounds, but a lot will be wasted on units with 1 wound to kill. The relic can get in a similar amount of wounds because it’s hit chance is better, but wounding chance is lower. Teeth of Terra is the middle ground with stronger enemies, but does substantially better than either when put up against hordes of weak strength characters.

Best of all, the teeth of terra is free because it replaces a chainsword. That’s a good 21 points to put elsewhere.

Technically the Storm Shield does give you another invulnerable save, it's just you can only take one of them on any given wound. Sounds pedantic, but it's important to understanding in general how saves work in this edition.

In practical terms, taking the shield means that for every 3 times you would have failed the save without it, you now pass one of those. So effectively it's the same as if you had 50% more wounds (assuming these are hits that negate your 3+ from power armour).

You also mention charging the turn you jump. Remember you will need to roll a 9+ on the charge roll. It is a 9 and not an 8 as some people think. This is because if moving 8" got you within 1" of the enemy, you must logically have been within 9" to start with, which would have been an illegal deployment. You may know that already, just making sure!

The chances of succeeding a 9+ on 2d6 is 27.8%, so I wouldn't bank everything on regularly pulling it off.

Now that you mention the chance of charging is that low, what’s the actual point in jump strikes? Why not strike 6” or more to make it 50/50? Honestly seems pointless, apart from the nice 12” move over 6” per turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nevelon wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The -1 is actually more significant than you'd think.

OK, I keep forgetting the re-roll/mod thing works a little flaky. You are correct.

Warning, amateur mathammer ahead:

Most weapons in a captain’s hands are hitting on a 2+, re-rolling 1s. So the only time you are going to miss is if you roll a 1, followed by another one. So hitting 35/36 of the time.

The TH has a -1 to hit.

So if you roll a 1 on the first die, and follow it up with a 1 or 2, you miss. a 3+ on the second die hits.
Any roll of a 2 on the first roll is a miss, as you don’t get to re-roll them. (note: chapter masters with full re-rolls are better then captains here)
3+ hits normally.

So you hit with the TH 28/36 times, or 78%. Which is worse then I guessed, but I’ll still take it over the relic blade. While the impact of the S is very target dependent, as is the 3 D, I feel they will compensate for the increased misses.

What about the Teeth of Terra? (S+1, AP-2, D2, and D3 additional attacks on top of the 4 the captain gets)?

ShaunyP wrote:

Stux wrote:

ShaunyP wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
The Teeth of Terra is not bad if you want to mulch troops. I’m questioning relic blades on captain these days though. Why not thunder hammers? The -1 to hit is less of an issue for captains as they will always be re-rolling ones, and the extra S and solid 3 damage more then makes up for it. Cost is the same.

I’ve never been a huge fan of storm shields on captains. Sure, boosting the 4++ to a 3++ is pretty nice, but I’m a miser on wargear, so balk at the price.

Oh so the shield doesn’t add an extra invulnerable save, it just replaces the existing one with a slightly more chancy one? Might just go with the master crafted Boltgun then, as under 12”, rapid fire gets double the shots right? So rapid fire 2 will get me 4 shots after a jump assault, then I could charge and get potentially 7 hits with the teeth.

Sounds like a bit of a waste now, especially if I use the teeth of terra so I won’t benefit from the shield eternal’s half damage.

Optimally, the teeth of terra can deliver the most wounds and kills, and the relic blade falls behind. The thunder hammer the middle ground. I did some calculations of chance of wounds, hits and armor saves. The hammer can deliver a lot of wounds, but a lot will be wasted on units with 1 wound to kill. The relic can get in a similar amount of wounds because it’s hit chance is better, but wounding chance is lower. Teeth of Terra is the middle ground with stronger enemies, but does substantially better than either when put up against hordes of weak strength characters.

Best of all, the teeth of terra is free because it replaces a chainsword. That’s a good 21 points to put elsewhere.

Technically the Storm Shield does give you another invulnerable save, it's just you can only take one of them on any given wound. Sounds pedantic, but it's important to understanding in general how saves work in this edition.

In practical terms, taking the shield means that for every 3 times you would have failed the save without it, you now pass one of those. So effectively it's the same as if you had 50% more wounds (assuming these are hits that negate your 3+ from power armour).

You also mention charging the turn you jump. Remember you will need to roll a 9+ on the charge roll. It is a 9 and not an 8 as some people think. This is because if moving 8" got you within 1" of the enemy, you must logically have been within 9" to start with, which would have been an illegal deployment. You may know that already, just making sure!

The chances of succeeding a 9+ on 2d6 is 27.8%, so I wouldn't bank everything on regularly pulling it off.

Now that you mention the chance of charging is that low, what’s the actual point in jump strikes? Why not strike 6” or more to make it 50/50? Honestly seems pointless, apart from the nice 12” move over 6” per turn.

It's hardly pointless! It allows you to deploy almost anywhere on the battlefield. In previous editions it was easier to get in to melee from deep strike, but it really wasn't much fun to play against. So now the idea is you will generally deploy one turn and charge the next, though there's a small chance you'll make it immediately.

Ideally what you do is deploy 9" away from your intended target, by behind line of sight blocking terrain. That way if you fail the role, you're fairly safe. And an added bonus is you want take overwatch fire.

Stux wrote:

ShaunyP wrote:

Stux wrote:

ShaunyP wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
The Teeth of Terra is not bad if you want to mulch troops. I’m questioning relic blades on captain these days though. Why not thunder hammers? The -1 to hit is less of an issue for captains as they will always be re-rolling ones, and the extra S and solid 3 damage more then makes up for it. Cost is the same.

I’ve never been a huge fan of storm shields on captains. Sure, boosting the 4++ to a 3++ is pretty nice, but I’m a miser on wargear, so balk at the price.

Oh so the shield doesn’t add an extra invulnerable save, it just replaces the existing one with a slightly more chancy one? Might just go with the master crafted Boltgun then, as under 12”, rapid fire gets double the shots right? So rapid fire 2 will get me 4 shots after a jump assault, then I could charge and get potentially 7 hits with the teeth.

Sounds like a bit of a waste now, especially if I use the teeth of terra so I won’t benefit from the shield eternal’s half damage.

Optimally, the teeth of terra can deliver the most wounds and kills, and the relic blade falls behind. The thunder hammer the middle ground. I did some calculations of chance of wounds, hits and armor saves. The hammer can deliver a lot of wounds, but a lot will be wasted on units with 1 wound to kill. The relic can get in a similar amount of wounds because it’s hit chance is better, but wounding chance is lower. Teeth of Terra is the middle ground with stronger enemies, but does substantially better than either when put up against hordes of weak strength characters.

Best of all, the teeth of terra is free because it replaces a chainsword. That’s a good 21 points to put elsewhere.

Technically the Storm Shield does give you another invulnerable save, it's just you can only take one of them on any given wound. Sounds pedantic, but it's important to understanding in general how saves work in this edition.

In practical terms, taking the shield means that for every 3 times you would have failed the save without it, you now pass one of those. So effectively it's the same as if you had 50% more wounds (assuming these are hits that negate your 3+ from power armour).

You also mention charging the turn you jump. Remember you will need to roll a 9+ on the charge roll. It is a 9 and not an 8 as some people think. This is because if moving 8" got you within 1" of the enemy, you must logically have been within 9" to start with, which would have been an illegal deployment. You may know that already, just making sure!

The chances of succeeding a 9+ on 2d6 is 27.8%, so I wouldn't bank everything on regularly pulling it off.

Now that you mention the chance of charging is that low, what’s the actual point in jump strikes? Why not strike 6” or more to make it 50/50? Honestly seems pointless, apart from the nice 12” move over 6” per turn.

It's hardly pointless! It allows you to deploy almost anywhere on the battlefield. In previous editions it was easier to get in to melee from deep strike, but it really wasn't much fun to play against. So now the idea is you will generally deploy one turn and charge the next, though there's a small chance you'll make it immediately.

Ideally what you do is deploy 9" away from your intended target, by behind line of sight blocking terrain. That way if you fail the role, you're fairly safe. And an added bonus is you want take overwatch fire.

Because overwatch shots only hit on 6s right? Think I’m starting to get it.

Correct, overwatch only hits on 6s. There is an exception for flamers though, which still auto-hit. Also, Overwatch shots can be rerolled in any instance where normal rerolls to shooting would apply (such as being with 6" of the space marine captain).

What I was alluding to in my previous comment though was that overwatch is fired BEFORE the charging unit is moved. This means that the overwatching unit must have range and line of sight to the charging unit before they move. So if you start a charge from behind a wall that completely obscures you from your target then they cannot legally shoot overwatch at you.

Similarly, normal flamers have a range of 8", so if you start a charge from 9" away the target cannot fire with their flamers. Which is a bit dumb, but that's how the rules work!