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Can a Tallarn Stormlord Ambush with Ogryns on board?

Also, is there a limit to the number of times you can buy Ambush?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/07 23:26:58


 
   
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Stormin' Stompa





xmbk wrote:
Can a Tallarn Stormlord Ambush with Ogryns on board?

Also, is there a limit to the number of times you can buy Ambush?
1. Yes, just declare the Ogryns are deployed inside as per the rules for deploying transports. In fact, I think RaW you don't even have to pick the Ogryns with the Ambush stratagem RaW. "When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately – declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up." So you deploy the transport with ambush before deploying the Ogryns in any fashion, then declare the Ogryns are embarked when you "set up in ambush" the transport.

2. No, there isn't. Even in matched play. The matched play limit explicitly excludes stratagems used before the game and not in an actual game phase (Movement, Shooting etc). However keep in mind the Tactical Reserves limit still applies, so you can't just ambush your whole army. You still need 50% of your units on the board even after using Ambush.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/12/07 23:35:21


   
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That first answer is stretching the 'pick three units' somewhat. The Ogryns are a unit, wherever they are, and the Stratagem allows a set number of units, that I believe have to be Tallarn. So 'just happening' to be full of Auxilia? I don't agree that's allowed, RAW.

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Ogryns can't take a regiment, so they can't take the strategy. But they can take a Stormlord taxi. Only other example I can think of is a Cloudstrike Wave Serpent, but I haven't seen an explicit ruling on that, either.
   
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xmbk wrote:
Ogryns can't take a regiment, so they can't take the strategy. But they can take a Stormlord taxi. Only other example I can think of is a Cloudstrike Wave Serpent, but I haven't seen an explicit ruling on that, either.
Ogryns don't need the regiment to deploy embarked on the Stormlord. The stratagem only affects the Stormlord, not the units that set up embarked on it.

   
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 BaconCatBug wrote:
xmbk wrote:
Ogryns can't take a regiment, so they can't take the strategy. But they can take a Stormlord taxi. Only other example I can think of is a Cloudstrike Wave Serpent, but I haven't seen an explicit ruling on that, either.
Ogryns don't need the regiment to deploy embarked on the Stormlord. The stratagem only affects the Stormlord, not the units that set up embarked on it.


thats still putting them in reserve. they wouldnt be able to do it as per them not having a regiment. They also count for the limit as well. Only Tallern units can be put in reserve as per the strat and only 2 additional to the stormlord. A unit is simply embarked within the transport. They are not held in reserve unless an ability is given to the unit to be able to be in reserve. The transport doesnt instill that ability.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/08 06:22:28


 
   
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 zedsdead wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
xmbk wrote:
Ogryns can't take a regiment, so they can't take the strategy. But they can take a Stormlord taxi. Only other example I can think of is a Cloudstrike Wave Serpent, but I haven't seen an explicit ruling on that, either.
Ogryns don't need the regiment to deploy embarked on the Stormlord. The stratagem only affects the Stormlord, not the units that set up embarked on it.
thats still putting them in reserve. they wouldnt be able to do it as per them not having a regiment. They also count for the limit as well. Only Tallern units can be put in reserve as per the strat and only 2 additional to the stormlord
You're totally wrong on this point. The embarked unit doesn't have to be Tallern, they don't count to the limit. All they have to do is be a legal unit to embark on the Stormlord and use the rules for deploying transport vehicles to begin embarked. I even quoted the rules required in my first post.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/12/08 06:22:05


   
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nope... your wrong. they can be deployed but not held in reserve. deployment doesnt give them the extra ability

 
   
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Stormin' Stompa





Here is the complete sequence of actions.

  • It is deployment.

  • I announce "I use the Ambush stratagem."

  • I then "Choose up to three TALLARN units to be set up in ambush instead of placing them on the battlefield (only one of these units can have the VEHICLE keyword)."

  • I then decide to set up a Stormlord and two Tallarn Company Commanders (because why not).

  • I invoke the rule from the rulebook: "When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately – declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up."

  • I declare that the "units" that "start the battle embarked within it" are my Ogryns.



  • Automatically Appended Next Post:
     zedsdead wrote:
    nope... your wrong. they can be deployed but not held in reserve. deployment doesnt give them the extra ability
    Oh boy, you claim I am wrong with zero proof or citations. Brilliant!

    I have given you the rules, I have given you the full sequence using those rules. Do you have an argument beyond "Nuh uh!"?

    This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/12/12 18:05:45


       
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    nope...still wrong. Read the reinforcements rule. You need to have the ability to be held in reserve. The strategum gives that if you are tallern. Orgyns cant get it.

    the strat only allows you to bring in no more than 3 units total.

    and no its not deployment..its reinforcements done in the movement phase

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/08 06:29:14


     
       
    Made in gb
    Stormin' Stompa





     zedsdead wrote:
    nope...still wrong. Read the reinforcements rule. You need to have the ability to be held in reserve. The strategum gives that if you are tallern. Orgyns cant get it.

    the strat only allows you to bring in no more than 3 units total.

    and no its not deployment..its reinforcements done in the movement phase
    Are you wilfully ignoring the part where the transport rules give you explicit permission to set up inside the transport during deployment? I even highlighted the magic words, "set up". It's consistent across all the rules.

    Pretty sure the Reinforcement rules have nothing to say on the matter? I'm seriously confused now because I literally do not see anything regarding being set up during deployment, only mid game.

    This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/08 06:34:24


       
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    you are declaring that the Vehical is going in reserve. So it isnt going to be set up on the board. Its getting an ambush rule that allows it to be used as a reinforcement unit. so unless the unit "also" has the same rule it cant be setup embarked in the Vehicle

     
       
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     zedsdead wrote:
    So it isnt going to be set up on the board
    Funny, I could have sworn the transport rules didn't say "set up on the board", they just said "set up."

    Oh, how bout dat! They only say "set up". You're adding words where there are none.

    There is no such thing as "Reserve". You're stuck in 7th edition mindset. There is only being set up now, regardless of where it might be.

    I understand if you think this isn't what the "intent" is, that's fine. It's also totally irrelevant to what the actual rules, as written in the rulebooks, say.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     zedsdead wrote:
    so unless the unit "also" has the same rule it cant be setup embarked in the Vehicle
    Please provide a citation for this claim.

    This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2017/12/08 06:47:21


       
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    listen.

    2 units are "setup" during deployment
    1 of those units gets the ability to "setup" during the movement phase.

    you embark the dudes at the "setup" as per embarkation rule

    nothing allowed you to hold the Orgyns in reserve to set them up in the reserved Tank.

     
       
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     zedsdead wrote:
    1 of those units gets the ability to "setup" during the movement phase.
    What? Ambush is used in deployment, long before the first turn or any movement is done.

    Again, I am asking for specific citations. I laid out the sequence in a previous post, what part of that sequence are you having problems with?


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     zedsdead wrote:
    nothing allowed you to hold the Orgyns in reserve to set them up in the reserved Tank.
    The rule on page 183 of the rulebook does. I've quoted it multiple times and I'll quote it again. "When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately – declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up."

    Again, again, again, the tank is NOT in "Reserves". It is being "set up in ambush". These are NOT the same things. If you want the rules for real "Reserves", check out the narrative missions or the new CA missions.

    This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/08 06:52:38


       
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    Embark rule:

    "declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up"

    you arent setting up the tank until movement phase.

    the unit without the rule cant wait till then

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/08 06:53:41


     
       
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     zedsdead wrote:
    Embark rule:

    "declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up"

    you arent setting up the tank until movement phase.
    The rule literally says "Choose up to three TALLARN units to be set up in ambush instead of placing them on the battlefield..."

    What part of that is not clear?

    You have fundamentally misunderstood what the Ambush stratagem does. You are simply wrong on this matter. It's clear however you do not intend to be swayed despite multiple literal quotes from the rulebooks, so I will bow out of this discussion before I lose my cool and say something that will cause the Space Police to swoop down and CONCORD me.

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/08 06:55:43


       
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    because the Tank is being setup in ambush still doesnt allow the unit embarked to be setup in ambush. You want embarked to give the unit an additional rule... im sorry it doesnt.

     
       
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     zedsdead wrote:
    because the Tank is being setup in ambush still doesnt allow the unit embarked to be setup in ambush. You want embarked to give the unit an additional rule... im sorry it doesnt.


    And yet Rulebook says:

    Page 183
    When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately – declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up.

    See how the rulebook does not specify "set up on battlefield" just "set up"? Becouse this applies to drop pods in high orbit and transports in ambush.

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/08 07:14:31


       
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     danyboy wrote:
     zedsdead wrote:
    because the Tank is being setup in ambush still doesnt allow the unit embarked to be setup in ambush. You want embarked to give the unit an additional rule... im sorry it doesnt.


    And yet Rulebook says:

    Page 183
    When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately – declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up.


    correct...

    but it doesnt say that unit gets any special rules. Ambush is a special rule given to the tank only. so in this case they cant.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     danyboy wrote:
     zedsdead wrote:
    because the Tank is being setup in ambush still doesnt allow the unit embarked to be setup in ambush. You want embarked to give the unit an additional rule... im sorry it doesnt.


    And yet Rulebook says:

    Page 183
    When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately – declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up.

    See how the rulebook does not specify "set up on battlefield" just "set up"? Becouse this applies to drop pods in high orbit and transports in ambush.


    exactly... Drop Pod Assault is a spacific rule that allows anything inside it to be deployed in ambush.

    the Stormlord doesnt have that rule.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     BaconCatBug wrote:


    You have fundamentally misunderstood what the Ambush stratagem does. You are simply wrong on this matter. It's clear however you do not intend to be swayed despite multiple literal quotes from the rulebooks, so I will bow out of this discussion before I lose my cool and say something that will cause the Space Police to swoop down and CONCORD me.


    just wanted to save that last quote

    This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/08 07:22:28


     
       
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    Germany

     zedsdead wrote:

    exactly... Drop Pod Assault is a spacific rule that allows anything inside it to be deployed in ambush.

    the Stormlord doesnt have that rule.


    The ambush stratagem allows up to three units to be placed in ambush. They are not on the battlefield, yet. The transporter is empty, no one is embarked. At the end of any of my movement phases i set up the stormlord (its a transporter) according to the rules of the stratagem.

    The transporter rule says : "When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately – declare what units are
    embarked inside the transport when you set it up."

    I have just set up a transporter on the battlefield with the ambush stratagem. Now the transporter rule allows me to declare what units are embarked inside the transport. I declare ogryns are embarked.

    There is no need to place any units inside the transporter before using the ambush stratagem, the transporter rule allows me to declare that when the transporter is set up on the battlefield.
       
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    Stormin' Stompa





     zedsdead wrote:
    Ambush is a special rule given to the tank only. so in this case they cant.
    No, it isn't. You're literally making things up now to support your utterly incorrect argument. Ambush is not a special rule. You have explicit permission to put the Ogryns in the Stormlord. That's the end of the discussion right there.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/08 09:03:01


       
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    @p5freak
    Actually placing unit "in ambush" is "set up". Exactly like placing drop pod in high orbit - somewhere else than battlefield, which means Reserves.

    The same goes with Ambush - you set up unit somwhere else than battlefield. Later after game starts they arrive as Reserves in form of Ambush.

    @zedsdead
    I see that many transport units have additional rules for embarked unit to come along (from Reserves), but I'm not sure if this is necessery since Core Rules gives blanket permission for that!

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/08 09:10:41


       
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     BaconCatBug wrote:
     zedsdead wrote:
    Ambush is a special rule given to the tank only. so in this case they cant.
    No, it isn't. You're literally making things up now to support your utterly incorrect argument. Ambush is not a special rule. You have explicit permission to put the Ogryns in the Stormlord. That's the end of the discussion right there.


    No you dont. and it isn't. Reading out two rules is great and all, but at no point do the Ogryns get the ability to be chosen to be off the table. RAW is not on your side here.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     zedsdead wrote:
     danyboy wrote:
     zedsdead wrote:
    because the Tank is being setup in ambush still doesnt allow the unit embarked to be setup in ambush. You want embarked to give the unit an additional rule... im sorry it doesnt.


    And yet Rulebook says:

    Page 183
    When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately – declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up.


    correct...

    but it doesnt say that unit gets any special rules. Ambush is a special rule given to the tank only. so in this case they cant.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     danyboy wrote:
     zedsdead wrote:
    because the Tank is being setup in ambush still doesnt allow the unit embarked to be setup in ambush. You want embarked to give the unit an additional rule... im sorry it doesnt.


    And yet Rulebook says:

    Page 183
    When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately – declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up.

    See how the rulebook does not specify "set up on battlefield" just "set up"? Becouse this applies to drop pods in high orbit and transports in ambush.


    exactly... Drop Pod Assault is a spacific rule that allows anything inside it to be deployed in ambush.

    the Stormlord doesnt have that rule.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     BaconCatBug wrote:


    You have fundamentally misunderstood what the Ambush stratagem does. You are simply wrong on this matter. It's clear however you do not intend to be swayed despite multiple literal quotes from the rulebooks, so I will bow out of this discussion before I lose my cool and say something that will cause the Space Police to swoop down and CONCORD me.


    just wanted to save that last quote


    Totally agree with this, zedsdeads. Sadly, BCB does this often; chide, deride, then hide.

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/08 10:40:00


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    Units in reserve are still set up there, it's in the Designers Commentary:

    Q: In missions where players alternate deploying units, do units that are set up somewhere other than the battlefield still count as a player’s deployment choice? What about units that begin the battle embarked within a transport?
    A: Units with abilities on their datasheets that allow them to be set up somewhere other than the battlefield must still be ‘set up’ in that locale, and so still count as a deployment choice. When you choose to set up a transport, declare what units (if any) are embarked inside – these are not separate deployment choices.
       
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    I have to say I think the IG player can transport his Ogryns or any other units that are legal to be transported, just the same as a Waveserpent being dropped in with the Eldar stratagem can bring in Wraithguard.

    I think this for reasons already presented above, the rules say "When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately" and the Stromlord is certainly being set up as per the wording of the ambush rule.
       
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    Drager wrote:
    I have to say I think the IG player can transport his Ogryns or any other units that are legal to be transported, just the same as a Waveserpent being dropped in with the Eldar stratagem can bring in Wraithguard.

    I think this for reasons already presented above, the rules say "When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately" and the Stromlord is certainly being set up as per the wording of the ambush rule.


    Then why does a Drop pod have the Drop Pod Assault rule, if the Transports rules alone would allow them to carry passengers? I believe it's because otherwise it couldn't carry passengers without express permission on their datasheet to not deploy normally.

    Absence of prohibiton is not the same as permission. It a fallacy many fall into. "It doesn't say I can't" is not how the rules operate.

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    Agreed. But in this case, the rules do give you permission, the Designer's Commentary specifically so. GW has always struggled with consistent wording, so I'm not sure the Drop Pod rule means much in this case.

    I'd love to see them FAQ this.
       
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    xmbk wrote:
    Agreed. But in this case, the rules do give you permission, the Designer's Commentary specifically so. GW has always struggled with consistent wording, so I'm not sure the Drop Pod rule means much in this case.

    I'd love to see them FAQ this.


    Can you show me where it says units without permission to begin off the board can do so? I haven't found anything that says that. There's a clause that says units in a transport count as one drop, but I can't find one allowing extra permissions. Always open to being wrong, just can't find anything of the sort!

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/08 11:38:33


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     JohnnyHell wrote:
    Drager wrote:
    I have to say I think the IG player can transport his Ogryns or any other units that are legal to be transported, just the same as a Waveserpent being dropped in with the Eldar stratagem can bring in Wraithguard.

    I think this for reasons already presented above, the rules say "When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately" and the Stromlord is certainly being set up as per the wording of the ambush rule.


    Then why does a Drop pod have the Drop Pod Assault rule, if the Transports rules alone would allow them to carry passengers? I believe it's because otherwise it couldn't carry passengers without express permission on their datasheet to not deploy normally.

    Absence of prohibiton is not the same as permission. It a fallacy many fall into. "It doesn't say I can't" is not how the rules operate.
    There is a permission to embark passengers and no restriction on doing so that I can see. I'm not making an "It doesn't say I can't argument." Please identify the fallacy in my argument if there is one, preferably by name.

    Premise 1) The Tallarn stratagem tells you to set up a unit in ambush.
    Premise 2) The rules for embarking passengers trigger on a transport being set up.
    Conclusion) Passengers can embark on a transport that has used the stratagem.
       
     
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