Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

KnightOfCaliban wrote:

#1. Speed of the Raven (1CP): "Used when a RAVENWING unit has advanced this turn. That unit may still shoot and charge this turn."

It doesnt say the unit can shoot any kind of weapon type. The unit advanced, you can only fire assault weapons, and charge this turn.

KnightOfCaliban wrote:

#2. Intractable (2CP): "Used when a Dark Angels unit has fallen back. They can still shoot this turn."

As said, there is no general -1 to hit when moving. Heavy weapons yes, anything else no.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

p5freak wrote:

KnightOfCaliban wrote:

#1. Speed of the Raven (1CP): "Used when a RAVENWING unit has advanced this turn. That unit may still shoot and charge this turn."

It doesnt say the unit can shoot any kind of weapon type. The unit advanced, you can only fire assault weapons, and charge this turn..

It does. Advancing prevents shooting. This Stratagem allows shooting after advancing. Shooting is any weapon type unless specified otherwise.

You can advance and shoot assault weapons. But you cannot advance, shoot assault weapons, and charge. The speed of the raven stratagem allows you to do this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

p5freak wrote:
It doesnt say the unit can shoot any kind of weapon type. The unit advanced, you can only fire assault weapons, and charge this turn.

Just from a common sense point of view, what's the point of the stratagem then? You could shoot assault weapons anyway (ignoring the RaW sillyness). It says they can shoot even though they advanced, that removes the penalty (unable to shoot) from advancing.

The point is to charge after advance, and shoot assault weapons. You cant charge after advancing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Timur wrote:

It doesnt say the unit can shoot any kind of weapon type. The unit advanced, you can only fire assault weapons, and charge this turn.

That kinda limits it to be used on black knights and command bikes or standard bikes with meltas... what else is there with assault weapons?

There are a lot of assault weapons : Inceptors have assault bolters and plasma exterminators (no idea if DA can use them), flamers are assault, astartes grenade launcher, astartes shotgun, carbine bolter, deathwind launcher, flamestormfists, wrist grenade launcher, mastercrafted storm bolt rifle, plasma cutter, hellbasters have assault plasma guns.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Your interpretation is still wrong. The Stratagem allows you to shoot after Advancing. This means all weapons.

There is no need for a stratagem to shoot after advancing, you can already do that. What the stratagem allows you to do is to charge, after advancing and shooting. Which is huge. Bikes move 14" + 6" when they advance, and roll 2D6 for the charge. Thats a threat range of 27".

 JohnnyHell wrote:

You're wrong.

It allows you to shoot after Advancing, all weapon types, and Charge. Your view of it is too narrow. It's no doubt in part designed to fix the fact that Bikes can't fire their Bolters and Attack Bikes cannot shoot at all if they Advance. Now for the cost of a few CPs they can get their Jink AND shoot/charge.

No, you are wrong. My view isnt too narrow, yours is too wide. RAW doesnt give you permission to shoot heavy weapons after advancing. Shooting restrictions from the rules still apply.

Please cite the passage from the stratagem where it lifts the restriction of firing heavy weapons when advancing.

You are misunderstanding the stratagem, the point is not to enable you to fire all weapons. The point is that it allows you to charge after advancing.

Jacksmiles wrote:

Weird then that it gives permission to shoot after advancing.

It also gives permission to charge after advancing.

GW is known for weird rules. Their choice of words is poor. The meaning is vague, unclear, clouded.

Jacksmiles wrote:

It does both. You are misunderstanding the stratagem, the point is that it allows you to shoot and charge after advancing. The point is the exact wording of the stratagem, which just says you can shoot. It doesn't call back to the assault weapon rules, it doesn't say "You can shoot the same weapons you already can after advancing so we didn't really need this sentence at all," it says "can shoot."

The exact wording of the stratagem does not give you permission to fire any kind of weapon type when advancing. Anyway, we are not going to convince each other, so lets wait until its FAQed.

Timur wrote:

White scars have a similar strategem called "Born in the sadle",
Use this Stratagem when a WHITE SCARS BIKER unit
Advances. That unit can still shoot and charge this turn.

Heres is a link from gw saying that you can advance,shoot and charge and no mention that it is limited to assault weapons only:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/18/chapter-focus-white-scars-july18gw-homepage-post-3/

Space marine bikes(white scar bikes) don't have assault weapons at all, other than the special weapons that 2 bikers may take: meltagun and flamer are the only weapons that are assault and you may only have up to 3 such weapons in a squad of 8 bikes.

Same applies to the ravenwing bike squad, three models may use special weapons, like flamers and meltas. Black knights have plasma weapons on their bikes. Can you guess the weapon type ? Let me give you a hint. It begins with "assa" and ends with "ult".
Some Stratagems are only for certain units, they are not meant to be used armywide. Born in the saddle and speed of the raven enable units with assault weapons (bikers) to charge after advancing, thats all.

Timur wrote:

So if what you are saying is true, than this strategem should have been written like so:"Use this Stratagem when a WHITE SCARS BIKER unit
Advances. That unit can still shoot his assault weapons and charge this turn." But whats the point of mentioning assault weapons if you can shoot them anyway?

As i said, GW rule writing is weird, unclear, vague.

Timur wrote:
If you look at Astra militarum codex you will notice that GW does provide more details regarding abilities that trigger after advancing when they are important. For example tallarn swift as the wind doctrine, they do mention additional details regarding which weapons you are allowed to shoot with after advancing and how they should behave:"..can advance and still shoot any weapon type (except heavy weapons)..".

Thank you for finding something that supports my argument. So, you need special permission to shoot any other weapon type than assault when advancing. There is nothing about this in both stratagems, so its not allowed.

Timur wrote:

Since there are no additional restrictions in "Speed of the raven" or the "Born in the saddle" its clear that we are allowed to shoot all weapons, the second one wasn't even faqed, probably because it doesn't cause any confusion with most players.