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Made in gb
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought





This was pointed out in another thread, the "Librarian on Bike" datasheets from the Index are still locked to the Index power lists, correct?

The designers commentary has an explicit instruction:
Does Your Model Have A Datasheet In A Codex? > No > Use The Index Version Of Your Model’s Datasheet
And there is no exception to use codex powers like there is to use codex wargear profiles and points.

Am I right in thinking this or did I miss an FAQ somewhere?

   
Made in gb
Xenohunter with First Contact





I've thought this and very unsure. Same as Librarians like Magister Sevrin Loth in the Forge World Astartes book... they refer specifically to the Index psychic powers, even giving a page reference.

Knowing what we know now about the speed they were written and the Quality Control resources applied to these books, it's hard to imagine they meant that they would never have access to the full suite - they were just giving reference to the books available right now.

I think it would be a very harsh TO/opponent to say "no you can only use the index powers".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/20 11:02:59


 
   
Made in de
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant





Germany

 BaconCatBug wrote:
This was pointed out in another thread, the "Librarian on Bike" datasheets from the Index are still locked to the Index power lists, correct?


RAW, yes.
   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




It was stated that you only use the index for points purposes if there are rules for the relevant wargear, special rules in the codex. Other than that you use the codex for it's rules if the rules are there

Look up the designer commentary, at the end they have What datasheet rules should i use?

   
Made in gb
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought





mchammadad wrote:
It was stated that you only use the index for points purposes if there are rules for the relevant wargear, special rules in the codex. Other than that you use the codex for it's rules if the rules are there

Look up the designer commentary, at the end they have What datasheet rules should i use?

I literally posted the designers commentary rules in my OP. I'll post them here again.
Does Your Model Have A Datasheet In A Codex? > No > Use The Index Version Of Your Model’s Datasheet

The fact is that the Librarian on Bike doesn't appear in the codex, it's Index only. Not just wargear, the entire datasheet. Did you read the OP or did you just post a reply without reading?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/20 12:05:30


   
Made in de
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant





Germany

The index datasheet says to use psychic powers from pg. 10, from the index. The designers commentary allows you to use wargear from the index if those aren't in the codex.
   
Made in gb
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought





p5freak wrote:
The index datasheet says to use psychic powers from pg. 10, from the index. The designers commentary allows you to use wargear from the index if those aren't in the codex.
And Powers are not Wargear.

   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




RAW, yes you can only use this Index Powers.

This is not surprising given the general consensus that the Index is a temporary soon to be dropped stopgap to keep people quiet a significant number of their models will soon be unplayable. I'm sure any friendly opponent will happily houserule you can use the full list, otherwise enquire with your TO.
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol






If you have a Deathwatch army, the same applies. For the Deathwatch, as well as new units, if you have the new Codex: Space Marines, feel free to use the full range of powers from the Space Marines Librarius Discipline in there for your Librarians. You’re equally welcome to stick with the Index powers if you prefer.

That's from a WHC article. Seems like anyone can use all powers if Deathwatch can.

I scratch-built a Macharius Vulcan, Thunderbolt and Spartan! Have a peek at the build and my painting progress here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/513429.page

My all-plastic Praetorian build log: http://bit.ly/1K7gn7J

People who say "special snowflake" a lot tend to be unpleasant people.

 
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




The only argument I can think of is Thousand Sons - while they were mentioned specifically in an article to be able to use the full Dark Hereticus discipline, it's still a precedent. Their index datasheets say to use the Hereticus discipline on page 10 of the index, yet we know that now that the Hereticus discipline has a full range of powers, the Thousand Sons have access to the full range.

It's the same situation here, minus 1k Sons being specifically stated to use the full discipline. But if someone wanted to use that as a precedent (along with the deathwatch example above) that would be good enough for me. I don't think their intention is to lock anything to index powers only, especially considering an index-only army has access to codex powers.

But RAW, if there's no exception for it, there's no exception for it.
   
Made in us
Major General





Florence, KY

Jacksmiles wrote:
The only argument I can think of is Thousand Sons - while they were mentioned specifically in an article to be able to use the full Dark Hereticus discipline,

That article no longer exists as far as I can tell.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in gb
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought





 Ghaz wrote:
Jacksmiles wrote:
The only argument I can think of is Thousand Sons - while they were mentioned specifically in an article to be able to use the full Dark Hereticus discipline,

That article no longer exists as far as I can tell.
It's almost like relying on stuff that isn't official FAQ or Errata is a bad idea.

   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Sounds like RAW yes you can only use index powers

this seems like the kinda thing you should email GW rules team about and try and squeeze it into the next faq.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




 Ghaz wrote:
Jacksmiles wrote:
The only argument I can think of is Thousand Sons - while they were mentioned specifically in an article to be able to use the full Dark Hereticus discipline,

That article no longer exists as far as I can tell.


It was goofy to me that it was in an article anyway. If they really wanted that to be rules or the general way to play, it needs to be in an actual rules document.

Also - yup, article is gone I guess. Clicked a link to it and got a 404. Is the article for the Deathwatch still up?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/20 18:18:33


 
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





East Bay, Ca, US

This is a situation where the RAW crowd is being overly punitive.


To compute the probability of a specific outcome on N DK dice, use the generating function F= (x+ x^2 + x^3 + . . . + x^k-1 + x^k)^n

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy.
How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

 
   
Made in gb
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought





 Marmatag wrote:
This is a situation where the RAW crowd is being overly punitive.

I disagree. You cannot, by definition, be "punitive" when applying the RaW. You either follow the rules or you don't. Might as well argue that enforcing that you only hit on a 3+ when your BS3+ is punitive.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/20 19:29:39


   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




My two cents:

So, after reading the Index and the Heretic Astartes book, I would argue that the Index sheets totally have access to the psychic powers in the Codex.

Why?

First: When you look at the index entry for Magnus, it tell you he can take X powers from the Dark Hereticus Discipline (pg11)

The (pg11) is not part of Dark Hereticus. It is a referential note in the sentence (hence why it is in Brackets). If it were a restricting factor, it would say 'on page 11' in the actual rule. You should be able to remove the words in brackets and still have a functional sentence.

Second: The Heretic Astartes book also includes a 'Dark Hereticus' list of psychic powers. The Index entry says that Magnus can take powers from the Dark Hereticus Discipline. Well the Heretic Astartes book just so happens to include a Dark Hereticus Discipline. So, go ahead and pick from it.
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol






 JohnnyHell wrote:
If you have a Deathwatch army, the same applies. For the Deathwatch, as well as new units, if you have the new Codex: Space Marines, feel free to use the full range of powers from the Space Marines Librarius Discipline in there for your Librarians. You’re equally welcome to stick with the Index powers if you prefer.

That's from a WHC article. Seems like anyone can use all powers if Deathwatch can.


I'll just go ahead and quote myself in the hope someone reads it thisntime.

I scratch-built a Macharius Vulcan, Thunderbolt and Spartan! Have a peek at the build and my painting progress here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/513429.page

My all-plastic Praetorian build log: http://bit.ly/1K7gn7J

People who say "special snowflake" a lot tend to be unpleasant people.

 
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




 JohnnyHell wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
If you have a Deathwatch army, the same applies. For the Deathwatch, as well as new units, if you have the new Codex: Space Marines, feel free to use the full range of powers from the Space Marines Librarius Discipline in there for your Librarians. You’re equally welcome to stick with the Index powers if you prefer.

That's from a WHC article. Seems like anyone can use all powers if Deathwatch can.


I'll just go ahead and quote myself in the hope someone reads it thisntime.


I referenced your post in my first one (but it's easy to miss). Also asked if that article is still up, because the one for Thousand Sons is not. (I assume it is though, as you 99.99% likely copy pasted from it, but just asking to be sure).
   
Made in gb
Imperial Admiral





Glasgow

 JohnnyHell wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
If you have a Deathwatch army, the same applies. For the Deathwatch, as well as new units, if you have the new Codex: Space Marines, feel free to use the full range of powers from the Space Marines Librarius Discipline in there for your Librarians. You’re equally welcome to stick with the Index powers if you prefer.

That's from a WHC article. Seems like anyone can use all powers if Deathwatch can.


I'll just go ahead and quote myself in the hope someone reads it thisntime.


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/22/the-other-angels-of-death-and-codex-space-marines/

This is the article.

First problem is that it's not rules, it's just a blog.

Second problem is that it doesn't actually answer the question. Since it's suggesting that the marine subfactions take their librarian datasheet from the codex that librarian would, of course, have access to the codex powers per it's datasheet. It doesn't tell you what to do about using an index librarian where the datasheet tells you to use the index powers.

Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves army lists in Index: Imperium 1 all let you use units from the Space Marines section of that book. If you own the new codex, you should feel free to use those same units’ Datasheets from that book instead, until your own codex comes out.

If you have a Deathwatch army, the same applies. For the Deathwatch, as well as new units, if you have the new Codex: Space Marines, feel free to use the full range of powers from the Space Marines Librarius Discipline in there for your Librarians. You’re equally welcome to stick with the Index powers if you prefer.
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





East Bay, Ca, US

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
This is a situation where the RAW crowd is being overly punitive.

I disagree. You cannot, by definition, be "punitive" when applying the RaW. You either follow the rules or you don't. Might as well argue that enforcing that you only hit on a 3+ when your BS3+ is punitive.


Except no tournament organizer is going to impose this restriction, and your false equivalence is ridiculous.

To compute the probability of a specific outcome on N DK dice, use the generating function F= (x+ x^2 + x^3 + . . . + x^k-1 + x^k)^n

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy.
How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

 
   
Made in us
Implaccable Grey Knight Paladin




The character was created with the limitation that they choose their powers from the index. There is no ruling that says that you can choose from your codex when it comes out. Therefore since the model is from the index the powers associated with it should come from the index unless ruled otherwise.

As to TOs- Hyperbole much? I doubt that you've talked with every TO and they've all responded as you claim. If I were a TO I would rule as I stated above and I don't think that I'm being unreasonable in any manner.
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol






Rather than arguing about it, email the FAQ email address. There's no point in falling out and throwing in dumb false equivalences when there's no real RAW basis for saying there's a restriction and no hard RAW evidence there is permision to choose Codex powers.

I'd imagine Index Librarians can freely choose from the Codex powers. Every time someone attempts to restrict what players can take it seems GW go "nah it's cool, use the latest stuff". See Wargear for reference.

Yes this is all HIWPI. Yes the article I posted wasn't Rules material etc etc - I did note that it was a hint at likely intent. But honestly, trying to say "That Librarian only has a choice of three powers" is crazy to me. If it's a Tournament ask the TO. Outside of that just let your opponent choose from the full power set. Why be difficult? I just don't get it.

Edit: tone is of bewilderment not anger - read back and realised sounded ranty. Not meant that way! More a "why can't we all just get along?" thing hahaha.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/21 08:56:17


 
   
Made in gb
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought





 Marmatag wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
This is a situation where the RAW crowd is being overly punitive.

I disagree. You cannot, by definition, be "punitive" when applying the RaW. You either follow the rules or you don't. Might as well argue that enforcing that you only hit on a 3+ when your BS3+ is punitive.


Except no tournament organizer is going to impose this restriction, and your false equivalence is ridiculous.
I am organising a tournament, and I will enforce this. Thus your reasoning is flawed.

   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut




Korbee11 wrote:
My two cents:

So, after reading the Index and the Heretic Astartes book, I would argue that the Index sheets totally have access to the psychic powers in the Codex.

Why?

First: When you look at the index entry for Magnus, it tell you he can take X powers from the Dark Hereticus Discipline (pg11)

The (pg11) is not part of Dark Hereticus. It is a referential note in the sentence (hence why it is in Brackets). If it were a restricting factor, it would say 'on page 11' in the actual rule. You should be able to remove the words in brackets and still have a functional sentence.

Second: The Heretic Astartes book also includes a 'Dark Hereticus' list of psychic powers. The Index entry says that Magnus can take powers from the Dark Hereticus Discipline. Well the Heretic Astartes book just so happens to include a Dark Hereticus Discipline. So, go ahead and pick from it.


I agree with this. RAW you can take codex powers, because brackets are only clarifications, not part of the rule.
RAI i don't think there is any doubt that you can. We have precedents, it's logical and it wouldn't make sense for those powers that were nerfed from index to codex if you could take the older version with an index only model.
   
Made in gb
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought





That makes no sense. That's like saying I can take my Ad Mech as ULTRAMARINES and get the bonuses from Girlyman, something which is explicitly forbidden.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/21 16:23:13


   
Made in fi
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought






Korbee11 wrote:
My two cents:

So, after reading the Index and the Heretic Astartes book, I would argue that the Index sheets totally have access to the psychic powers in the Codex.

Why?

First: When you look at the index entry for Magnus, it tell you he can take X powers from the Dark Hereticus Discipline (pg11)

The (pg11) is not part of Dark Hereticus. It is a referential note in the sentence (hence why it is in Brackets). If it were a restricting factor, it would say 'on page 11' in the actual rule. You should be able to remove the words in brackets and still have a functional sentence.

Second: The Heretic Astartes book also includes a 'Dark Hereticus' list of psychic powers. The Index entry says that Magnus can take powers from the Dark Hereticus Discipline. Well the Heretic Astartes book just so happens to include a Dark Hereticus Discipline. So, go ahead and pick from it.

Good explanation. Agreed.


Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Ignoring Nikaea since 001.M31






Svalarheima, MA

1) Let's all remember to follow RULE #1

2) Is it really that hard to remember how to spell 'Guilliman'?

Nil nos tremefacit.
 
   
Made in gb
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought





 Alpharius wrote:
2) Is it really that hard to remember how to spell 'Guilliman'?
Rowboat Girlyman is the best of the Primarks. But we all know that he was replaced by Alpharius mid Heresy anyway thanks to Poundland meddling.

But to get back on topic, the logic presented here that the page reference doesn't matter and you can just substitute rules from other codexes if the names happen to be similar is faulty and simply wrong. It's explicitly telling you to use the rule on that page, not some other page in some other book.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/12/21 18:16:17


   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut




 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Alpharius wrote:
2) Is it really that hard to remember how to spell 'Guilliman'?
Rowboat Girlyman is the best of the Primarks. But we all know that he was replaced by Alpharius mid Heresy anyway thanks to Poundland meddling.

But to get back on topic, the logic presented here that the page reference doesn't matter and you can just substitute rules from other codexes if the names happen to be similar is faulty and simply wrong. It's explicitly telling you to use the rule on that page, not some other page in some other book.


What you describe (ultramarine flavored adeptus) is perfectly doable and stopped only by a specific FAQ.

The page reference in the bracket is just a commodity, let's not give it rule dignity. There is only one list that can be identified as "InsertName" discipline, which like profiles appears in many versions, and it is only logical to use the most up to date. Names are always the disambiguation keys in GW publications. GW has already officially stated, for example, that 2 powers with the same name are the same power even if they have different effects.
I really can't find a reason to not allow the full selection.
   
 
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